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Old 03-20-2021, 10:19 PM   #21
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Oh, yes. If someone casts a spell while an Aid is active, it would use the Aid ST.
But in a previous post, you said that if someone got 2 fatigue due to berserk ending while an Aid spell is active, that does NOT use the Aid ST, right?

You treat fatigue from spells and other sources of fatigue different when an Aid spell is active?
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Old 03-20-2021, 10:24 PM   #22
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Oh, yes. If someone casts a spell while an Aid is active, it would use the Aid ST.
What about mundane fatigue? Let's suppose a berserk figure has 1 ST left, is Aided 2 ST, suffers no damage and comes out of berserk while Aid is on. When Aid expires, do they have 1 ST left, or -1 ST? If the latter, why is mundane fatigue treated differently than that accumulated from spell casting?
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Old 03-20-2021, 10:25 PM   #23
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

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Well, that would make it even simpler.

I like the reading/reasoning that goes:

ITL p. 9:

As long as they're "just barely dead" / dying, and so lying there doing nothing, I like to count that as rest for such people who have fatigue. I think it's reasonable and interesting that such figures may wake up on their own after the fatigue wears off.

I think it fits really well with the very common pre-Legacy house rule that fatigue doesn't kill people, in which case it plays exactly like it used to (unless you rule you only have one hour to get back to 0+ ST).

But it is simpler and certainly another at-least-as-valid reading that "just barely dead" / dying figures don't recover fatigue.
The thing I don't like about that house rule is that wizards are a lot less fragile so long as they're on the winning side. There's not much reason to worry about casting spells and draining ST.

If I start with 7 ST and use up 5 ST casting spells, I'll be fine if I'm hit for 1d or less damage. I'll get knocked out, but in the heat of the battle, who pauses to kill a knocked out character? Just so long as I'm not hit for 8 damage, I'll wake up.
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Old 03-20-2021, 10:32 PM   #24
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Skarg, I guess I'm not quite getting your position here. Let me see if I understand you.

In each of the following cases, Wizard has ST 1 and receives 3 ST from an Aid spell. Please let me know if you agree.
EDIT: Oh, wait... I didn't get what you meant. I'll try again in another post below...


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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
What I'm getting at here is that if I'm reading you right, you're treating fatigue from spellcasting different than fatigue from berserk. But maybe I'm misunderstanding.
Well, not once it is fatigue. Aid ST doesn't remove fatigue you already have. But I think that spellcasting can use ST from an Aid ST spell to cast a spell (rather than get fatigue), if/when an Aid ST spell is on the caster.

Last edited by Skarg; 03-20-2021 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 03-20-2021, 10:45 PM   #25
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
The thing I don't like about that house rule is that wizards are a lot less fragile so long as they're on the winning side. There's not much reason to worry about casting spells and draining ST.

If I start with 7 ST and use up 5 ST casting spells, I'll be fine if I'm hit for 1d or less damage. I'll get knocked out, but in the heat of the battle, who pauses to kill a knocked out character? Just so long as I'm not hit for 8 damage, I'll wake up.
Ok. I didn't originally play with that house rule either, and we all enjoyed ourselves. It was a popular house rule in recent decades, particularly with people with the preference that wizards not be that fragile. Without that house rule, a wizard not only needs to manage their ST, but using most of their ST is also deadly dangerous.

While yes, unconscious figures on the winning side are often ok, in many situations it's pretty dangerous to be unconscious after a fight even if your side won, because it'll be some time before you are conscious again, and other things may be happening, and even when you are conscious, you'll still be very tired.

In our games, wizards tend to be very vulnerable and attract attacks, and this hardly makes them safe. Some wizards have been left behind (and captured and/or never seen again) after casting themselves even just to unconsciousness, because the party didn't think it'd work well to carry the wizard with them.

I think it's just a matter of preference.
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Old 03-20-2021, 10:55 PM   #26
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
But in a previous post, you said that if someone got 2 fatigue due to berserk ending while an Aid spell is active, that does NOT use the Aid ST, right?

You treat fatigue from spells and other sources of fatigue different when an Aid spell is active?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
What about mundane fatigue? Let's suppose a berserk figure has 1 ST left, is Aided 2 ST, suffers no damage and comes out of berserk while Aid is on. When Aid expires, do they have 1 ST left, or -1 ST? If the latter, why is mundane fatigue treated differently than that accumulated from spell casting?
Yeah, my personal inclination would tend to treat the physical fatigue from going berserk as something that you can't intercept with an Aid ST spell. That's because I think of spellcasting as a psychic activity where the caster has some choice about where to draw ST for the spell from: Their physical ST, a powerstone, staff mana, or an Aid spell. I don't think a berserker is likely to be able to draw their physical fatigue from an Aid spell. Also I think he only feels the fatigue at the end, but was really causing his body stress during the berserk actions.

I'm not particularly attached to that interpretation, but that's how I tend to think about it.
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Old 03-20-2021, 11:07 PM   #27
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

Ok, trying to make sense of this question again.

You didn't really give what I'd call a full description of the situation. I'm going to assume the wizard in each of these situations starts the situation with base ST 10 and 9 fatigue, and a 3 ST Aid spell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Skarg, I guess I'm not quite getting your position here. Let me see if I understand you.

In each of the following cases, Wizard has ST 1 and receives 3 ST from an Aid spell. Please let me know if you agree.

(1) Wizard casts 2 ST worth of spells. At the time the Aid wears off, he is at ST 1; the fatigue for spell casting came off the Aided ST.
Yes. ST 10, 9 fatigue.


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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
(2) Wizard takes 2 wounds. At the time Aid wears off, he is at ST -1.
Yes. ST 10, 9 fatigue, 2 wounds.


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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
(3) Wizard ends a berserking session (ignore the implausibility of a berserk wizard) and so gains 2 fatigue. At the time Aid wears off, he is at ST -1.
Yes. ST 10, 11 fatigue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
What I'm getting at here is that if I'm reading you right, you're treating fatigue from spellcasting different than fatigue from berserk. But maybe I'm misunderstanding.
In the aspect you asked about, the fatigue, once suffered, is the same.

What I'd tend to rule was different, as I also tried to explain in the post above, is the choice of where to draw ST from. I think when casting a spell, the caster has a choice of where to draw ST from. I tend to think a berserker has no such choice, and just suffers fatigue from wear and tear of overexertion.

Of course it's possible that the Aid spell just magically takes care of berserk and all other fatigue suffered during its 2-turn duration in any case. It's not really spelled out in the rules. A good question for Steve.
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Old 03-20-2021, 11:13 PM   #28
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Ok. I didn't originally play with that house rule either, and we all enjoyed ourselves. It was a popular house rule in recent decades, particularly with people with the preference that wizards not be that fragile. Without that house rule, a wizard not only needs to manage their ST, but using most of their ST is also deadly dangerous.

While yes, unconscious figures on the winning side are often ok, in many situations it's pretty dangerous to be unconscious after a fight even if your side won, because it'll be some time before you are conscious again, and other things may be happening, and even when you are conscious, you'll still be very tired.

In our games, wizards tend to be very vulnerable and attract attacks, and this hardly makes them safe. Some wizards have been left behind (and captured and/or never seen again) after casting themselves even just to unconsciousness, because the party didn't think it'd work well to carry the wizard with them.

I think it's just a matter of preference.
Sure, you're right. I've been doing battles that are isolated lately, not the labyrinth style play where one battle follows another and you have to keep going. In that situation, being unconscious is a more serious matter.
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Old 03-20-2021, 11:26 PM   #29
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Ok, trying to make sense of this question again.

You didn't really give what I'd call a full description of the situation. I'm going to assume the wizard in each of these situations starts the situation with base ST 10 and 9 fatigue, and a 3 ST Aid spell.
I didn't figure it mattered why he was at ST 1. Make him an ST 1 pixie to simplify matters, I suppose.

Quote:
In the aspect you asked about, the fatigue, once suffered, is the same.

What I'd tend to rule was different, as I also tried to explain in the post above, is the choice of where to draw ST from. I think when casting a spell, the caster has a choice of where to draw ST from. I tend to think a berserker has no such choice, and just suffers fatigue from wear and tear of overexertion.

Of course it's possible that the Aid spell just magically takes care of berserk and all other fatigue suffered during its 2-turn duration in any case. It's not really spelled out in the rules. A good question for Steve.
Okay, I guess I get where we differ. You're kinda wiping out the effects of Aid at the time the fatigue is generated, using fatigue to eat up granted ST, but only in the case of spells (or, I suppose, powering magic items).

I view the way it works with spells is that you really suffer the full fatigue, but when the Aid spell turns off, at that point the fatigue assigned to the granted ST goes away. See, if you look at it the way I do, it makes no sense that some fatigue gets prioritized to granted ST and other to regular ST. Fatigue is fatigue.

Of course, whether wounds should be treated the same as fatigue is an orthogonal issue, but I think that simplicity is a good way to go. Spell fatigue is just fatigue and all fatigue should be treated similarly. Both fatigue and hits are the same kind of thing too (ST deficits or whatever name you choose) and so I lean to treating them the same.

By the way, in a previous post I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
As for your question, I'd say that the folks on the other side really should say the fatigue loss is wiped out when the spell ends, for consistency's sake, and I don't see any particular reason they wouldn't want to say that but I suppose I might be mistaken.
Well, you did surprise me but at least I did admit I could be wrong.
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Old 03-23-2021, 10:59 AM   #30
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

  1. Any fatigue can be countered with Drain Strength, Mana or Powerstones.
  2. Aid can't boost an effective attribute by more than five points.
  3. Aid can be used to pay for "very high ST cost" spells.
Therefore if a ST 10 wizard is given 50 points of Aided ST then he hits for unarmed damage and can lift weights as per ST 15.

If in this time he is hit for 15 points he falls unconscious and another point will kill him.

He can pay any fatigue cost he suffers during the two turns of effect (but not previous expenditure) from the 50 points of Aided ST.

If he was hit for 12 points then he would die once the Aid wears off.
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