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Old 02-01-2021, 04:38 PM   #11
juris
 
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: CA
Default Re: Ludicrous question of the day: drivers in sidecars?

I second this lunacy:

Rocketman(s) -- Heavy Cycle, Heavy suspension, Medium Cycle power plant w/PC & SC, 10-pt CA (Power Plant), 2 Motorcycle Puncture-Resistant tires, Cyclist w/BA and PFE and 10-pt CA, Variable-Fire Rocket Pod Front, Plastic Armor: F10, B5, 2 5-pt Cycle Wheelguards, Gear Allocation: [5 lbs.], Acceleration 5, Top Speed 90, HC 4, 1295 lbs., $7180

Heavy Sidecar, Heavy Suspension, Motorcycle Puncture-Resistant tire, Gunner w/SWC and BA and 10-pt CA, Plastic Armor: F10, R10, B7, T1, U1, 5-pt Cycle Wheelguard, 749 lbs., $2595

Total = $9775 - 6DD weapon on a cycle!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 43Supporter View Post
Just tossed these together:

_Maxi 2A_: Heavy Cycle; Hv. susp.; Medium Cycle power plant w/PC & SC; 2x PR tire; Driver. 2x RL [1 ea. F, B]. Armor: F, B: 8. $6,192; 1,296 lbs.

Heavy Sidecar; Lt. Susp.; PR tire; Gunner. SS [B]. Armor: F, R, U: 5; B: 6; 10-pt CWG. $1,205; 746 lbs.

Total: $7,397; 2,042 lbs. Acc.: 5, TS: 90; HC: 2.

_Maxi 2B_: Heavy Cycle, Hv. susp.; Large Cycle power plant; 2x HD tire; Driver. 2x MG (L) [F]; SS [B]. Armor: F: 8; B: 7; 2x 5-pt CWG. $6,630; 1,300 lbs.

Heavy Sidecar, Lt. Susp.; HD tire; Gunner. MG [B]; Link (Sidecar MG-SS). Armor: F, R: 1; B: 2; 3-pt CWG. $2,100; 750 lbs.

Total: $8,730; 2,050 lbs. Acc.: 5; TS: 100; HC 2.
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Old 02-02-2021, 11:59 AM   #12
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Ludicrous question of the day: drivers in sidecars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjamma4 View Post
Except by the rules, you cannot have a gunner on a cycle.

A single passenger can ride behind a cycle’s driver; he takes up no extra space but adds weight, and can use hand weapons only. p. 72

Per previous posts, by the rules you cannot have a gunner in a sidecar.
Hmmm, I always took that as a specific statement about a pillion passenger taking up no space not as a statement that a cycle can have only one passenger.

A passenger is just another component, as is a gunner. If you have the space you can fit them to any vehicle as long as it not specifically prohibited (as for example they are prohibited for all racing cars except the Can-Am). The design rules for bikes don't mention gunners, but neither do the design rules for helicopters.

It usually doesn't matter as bikes don't have enough space to carry a gunner and a weapon, but I can find no specific rule saying Cycles cannot carry gunners.
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Old 02-02-2021, 02:07 PM   #13
kjamma4
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicagoland Area, Illinois
Default Re: Ludicrous question of the day: drivers in sidecars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by juris View Post
Heck, a sidecar can even have a turret.
Yes and no.

A regular sidecar cannot have a regular turret.

However, there is a special cycle turret sidecar where the turret is already built into the design. Note that they specifically cannot hold a passenger despite having the space for one.

Last edited by kjamma4; 02-02-2021 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 02-02-2021, 02:12 PM   #14
kjamma4
 
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Default Re: Ludicrous question of the day: drivers in sidecars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
A passenger is just another component, as is a gunner. If you have the space you can fit them to any vehicle as long as it not specifically prohibited (as for example they are prohibited for all racing cars except the Can-Am). The design rules for bikes don't mention gunners, but neither do the design rules for helicopters.

but I can find no specific rule saying Cycles cannot carry gunners.
Well, I think we agree in principle what should be allowed but disagree in what the rules allow.

For example, I don’t think there’s a reason a sidecar couldn’t contain more than one passenger subject to the space limitation but the rules do specifically say “one passenger.” I would think a game set in the future about combat would figure out a way to design a cycle with more than one passenger. However, the rules say no (despite current Google searches which show it is possible – although probably not what the cycle was designed for.)

The issue I have with the rules here is twofold – as I stated previously, there is some inconsistency in what terms are used. Also, which goes to your point about the Can-Ams, sometimes the rules say what isn’t allowed and sometimes they say what is. Non Can-Am racing cars are prohibited from having a passenger OR a gunner. The Can-Am can have one passenger OR one gunner. Note however that the rules here were very specific in mentioning both passengers OR gunners. Why then should we assume when they are very specific in allowing a passenger in a sidecar that they also mean a gunner too? Wouldn’t they say a passenger OR a gunner just like they did for the racing body types?

Helicopters

Building a motorcycle is very similar to building a car p. 74

Helicopters follow construction rules similar to those for cars p.92

Sounds good – we’re on notice that neither are exactly like the car rules. So, are those differences going to be what is allowed or what is not allowed?

You are correct that the design rules for helicopters don’t mention gunners. They also don’t mention passengers. The only mention of humans is “crewman” which by my best read is someone in the crew compartment (which is driver, gunners, and passengers not specifically in cargo space.) So, by that definition, passengers and gunners are allowed on helicopters.

Of limited value, but not of zero value, are the published designs. In my somewhat limited search, I did not find any designs with a gunner in a side car. Granted, I only found one that had a passenger. Contrast that with many helicopter designs that had gunner(s) and passenger(s).

Like I said, I see no reason (realism, fun) why a sidecar shouldn’t have a gunner except for the fact that only a passenger is mentioned and also was surprised that was a rule as I always assumed they could have a gunner.
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Old 02-02-2021, 02:50 PM   #15
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Ludicrous question of the day: drivers in sidecars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjamma4 View Post
Of limited value, but not of zero value, are the published designs. In my somewhat limited search, I did not find any designs with a gunner in a side car. Granted, I only found one that had a passenger. Contrast that with many helicopter designs that had gunner(s) and passenger(s).
[nod] I had the same issue some months back, with the HD-transmission/PF rule -- _Combat Showcase_ had vehicles which seemed to contradict the rule "HDT increases PF-count *only* for calculating towing, not for anything else" while _VG2_ HDT designs all (save _Chopper_) did not. And the later-published "errata" for _CS_ got rid of all the contradicting designs....

In the case of "putting a gunner in a sidecar": I note the designs tend to be spectacularly overgunned -- and underarmored; so I'm guessing most people looked at this option, and decided "juice ain't worth squeeze".

As to cycle passengers, 0-space vs. non-0-space: Cycles don't have that many spaces to start with; putting additional bodies in those spaces isn't worth it, unless one is building some sort of el-cheapo LAW platform.

(There's also the question of "what does a _CW_ cycle's riding position actually look like?" -- I've always pictured it as looking like Don Garlits's "Alligator", with the sunken seat to provide better protection: http://allamericanracers.com/wp/wp-c...-alligator.jpg . If one did that with two persons, it would be more "space" occupied; whereas if the passenger was seated above the rear wheel, it wouldn't.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjamma4 View Post
Non Can-Am racing cars are prohibited from having a passenger OR a gunner.
https://www.motorsport.com/indycar/p...e-car/1408962/

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Old 02-03-2021, 04:13 AM   #16
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Ludicrous question of the day: drivers in sidecars?

Truth be told, I had missed the "one passenger" note on sidecars.

Given the increasingly inconsistent wording as the game evolved with cut and paste contradicting newly written sections, it is hardly surprising that so much is interpretation.

It seems that someone decided what a sidecar was (based on Mad-Max or some such) and imposed a set of restrictions on it to reinforce that view rather than make the basic stats match it. The light sidecar CAN only carry one passenger, but that is because of the weight limit, not some arbitrary restriction. They were also traditionally viewed as targets rather than player vehicles and like old school Orcs, they don't get the same treatment as player characters do ;(

I also choose to ignore what are basic absurdities in the rules. For example "will only have top armor if they are weapons-only sidecars". Fully enclosed sidecars (i.e. hardtop) have been available since at least the 1930's. Several are capable of seating more than one passenger in a conventional one behind the other configuration.

So whilst I would tend to agree the rules as written seem to go against the option of having a gunner in a sidecar, I would suggest that the rules are WRONG in this regard and I would write an article to ADQ if we still had one (or if I happened to be on good terms with the editor of the day, I could probably got the main rules changed on the basis of a casual conversation over the gaming table).

For playability I will continue to use my basic premise that you can fit as many components as the weight and space allow and that crew is just another component be that driver/rider, gunner or passenger and I will allow top armour on sidecars regardless of the nature of the components - with all the fire arc restrictions that may bring.

Some components do need to be specific for a vehicle e.g. boats need propellers. Other components could have been rationalised in UACFH as subsequent general items have the same function e.g. the special rules for the Cycle Turret Sidecar could be replaced by the generic rules for sponsors that came out in ADQ. We only needed a Cycle Windshell because someone originally decided bikes could only have armour on the front or back. In fact since the 20's bikes have had fully enclosed frames (with only the rider sitting outside them). With retractable stabilisers (so you can get in without it falling over) a full shell has always been an option.

However I agree KJAMMA is correct. Rules as written/as cobbled together over the years mean you can only have one passenger and not a gunner in the sidecar.
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Old 02-03-2021, 08:07 AM   #17
JimTullis
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Default Re: Ludicrous question of the day: drivers in sidecars?

I never got into motorcycles when I was playing Classic Car Wars. I always assumed that when you added a sidecar with a seat you got to add a gunner.
And all open top Jeeps have an MG pintle mount. ;)

I guess I was overly influenced by Rat Patrol, WWII movies and 12 inch Gi-Joes.

Any way, here's a link to an informative article. There are even some pics of Motorcycle Sidecar Trailer combos.

https://autowise.com/ww2-motorcycle-sidecar-bikes/
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Old 02-03-2021, 06:21 PM   #18
43Supporter
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Ludicrous question of the day: drivers in sidecars?

Oddly, there's a music video which shows a sidecar with two passengers on it -- look up Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers' "You Got Lucky". (Even has a vaguely-_Car Wars_ feel to it.) So I see the "one passenger" statement as an editing error -- one I rectified a while ago....
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Old 02-04-2021, 02:27 AM   #19
JimTullis
 
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Default Re: Ludicrous question of the day: drivers in sidecars?

I remember when that video came out.
Very post apocalypse.
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Old 02-04-2021, 05:40 AM   #20
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Ludicrous question of the day: drivers in sidecars?

I have a new word.

DALNIK.

I will now allow cycles to have armour in all locations (as long as you pay the cost). This protects the whole bike. No components are exposed other than the wheels (and they count as being protected by wheel guards for free).

http://www.hedonia.net/art/images/vehicles/nsu002.jpg
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