Treat margin of success of 0 as 1 when results for 0 would look like failure?

zedlopez · 02-07-2017, 05:53 PM

Success for Musical Influence means getting to adjust your audience's reaction roll by +/- your margin of success (B210). I assume nothing happens on failure; it doesn't say things get worse.

On a Panhandling success, you get $2 x your margin of success; on failure you get nothing. (B212)

On a Lifting success, you increase your Basic Lift by 5% x your margin of success. (B353) Nothing described for failure; I assume nothing happens.

If I'm right about nothing happening on failure for Musical Influence and Lifting, then for all three, rules-as-written would seem to say that success with a margin of 0 isn't different from failure.

When they say that, should success with a margin of 0 should get bumped up to 1 for the purposes of determining results?

Kromm said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm

A few rules do assign a minimum margin of 1 to any uncontested success, but those are special cases.

I haven't seen anyplace that says that, but there's a lot I haven't read... anyone know any?

Phantasm · 02-07-2017, 06:29 PM

If a success by 0 nets a 0 due to multiplication by 0, I'd permit it to be treated as a success by one.

(That said, I have to remind my players that to add 1 to their Rcl 1 beam weapon hits due to a similar issue; they treat an MoS 4 as 4 hits, not 5. Similar deal, IMO)

zedlopez · 02-08-2017, 08:44 AM

OK, I guess the 0 result makes sense for Lifting since you're only trying to do it when you're trying to lift more than your BL.

But Panhandling is an uncontested success roll. And Musical Influence specifies that listeners may choose to resist with Will, but otherwise it's a success roll that sets up a reaction roll modifier, not a contest.

zedlopez · 02-10-2017, 08:48 AM

On further reflection, the Lifting case seems frustrating, too. Since you are only trying it to lift more than your BL, success at 0 does come out to the same thing as failure.

Anyone else out there have any thoughts?

Andreas · 02-10-2017, 09:11 AM

I suggest to think of it as just barely being a success, so the effect is rounded down to 0. For example, a Musical Influence success by 0 do influence the audience, but the influence is too small to count as a +1 to a reaction roll.

Treating margin of success of 0 as 1 in those cases, would just move the problem from a margin of success of 0 being no better than a failure, to a margin of success of 1 being no better than a margin of success of 0 and the justification I provided above would cease to apply.

If you still want to change it, I would suggest changing the skill so that the effect is based on margin of success + 1 instead and increase the difficulty of the skill (for skills that aren't already very hard) by one step to compesate.

zedlopez · 02-10-2017, 10:37 AM

Letting success by margin of 1 be no better than success by margin of 0 is feels to me less objectionable than letting success be no better than failure, even if the latter could also be by a margin of only 0...

And the bit I quoted from Kromm up top seems to say that letting a success by margin of 1 be the same as success by a margin of 0 is explicitly called out as the right thing in some places (though I don't know what those are.)

...or I'm reading it wrong and "assign a minimum margin of 1" doesn't mean set it to 1 if it was less than 1, but rather to require a margin of success of 1 for actual success, i.e., the complete opposite.

Varyon · 02-10-2017, 01:25 PM

Personally, there are a lot of times in GURPS where I feel it's appropriate to read "0" as "0.5." My alternative to Imbuements does this for the relationship between FP cost and difficulty, for example.

For things that are "n*(MoS)," the result is n/2 - $1 for Panhandling, +2.5% to BL, etc. For cases where only an integer value makes sense, like the adjustment from Musical Instrument, you can either go with an in-between option (if you a Neutral reaction, but a +1 would boost that to Good, have the reaction be somewhere between those two categories) or treat +0.5 as being worth +1 half the time, +0 the other half (with music, this would either mean half your audience having a Neutral reaction and half having a Good one, or would be a 50% chance of getting a Good reaction).

02-07-2017, 06:29 PM	#2
Phantasm Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the road again...	Re: Treat margin of success of 0 as 1 when results for 0 would look like failure? If a success by 0 nets a 0 due to multiplication by 0, I'd permit it to be treated as a success by one. (That said, I have to remind my players that to add 1 to their Rcl 1 beam weapon hits due to a similar issue; they treat an MoS 4 as 4 hits, not 5. Similar deal, IMO) __________________ "Life ... is an Oreo cookie." - J'onn J'onzz, 1991 "But mom, I don't wanna go back in the dungeon!" The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project A-G, H-R, and S-Z, and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation. Ranoc, a Muskets-and-Magery Renaissance Fantasy Setting

02-08-2017, 08:44 AM	#3
zedlopez Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Berkeley	Re: Treat margin of success of 0 as 1 when results for 0 would look like failure? OK, I guess the 0 result makes sense for Lifting since you're only trying to do it when you're trying to lift more than your BL. But Panhandling is an uncontested success roll. And Musical Influence specifies that listeners may choose to resist with Will, but otherwise it's a success roll that sets up a reaction roll modifier, not a contest.

02-10-2017, 08:48 AM	#4
zedlopez Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Berkeley	Re: Treat margin of success of 0 as 1 when results for 0 would look like failure? On further reflection, the Lifting case seems frustrating, too. Since you are only trying it to lift more than your BL, success at 0 does come out to the same thing as failure. Anyone else out there have any thoughts?

02-10-2017, 09:11 AM	#5
Andreas Join Date: Mar 2014	Re: Treat margin of success of 0 as 1 when results for 0 would look like failure? I suggest to think of it as just barely being a success, so the effect is rounded down to 0. For example, a Musical Influence success by 0 do influence the audience, but the influence is too small to count as a +1 to a reaction roll. Treating margin of success of 0 as 1 in those cases, would just move the problem from a margin of success of 0 being no better than a failure, to a margin of success of 1 being no better than a margin of success of 0 and the justification I provided above would cease to apply. If you still want to change it, I would suggest changing the skill so that the effect is based on margin of success + 1 instead and increase the difficulty of the skill (for skills that aren't already very hard) by one step to compesate.

02-10-2017, 10:37 AM	#6
zedlopez Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Berkeley	Re: Treat margin of success of 0 as 1 when results for 0 would look like failure? Letting success by margin of 1 be no better than success by margin of 0 is feels to me less objectionable than letting success be no better than failure, even if the latter could also be by a margin of only 0... And the bit I quoted from Kromm up top seems to say that letting a success by margin of 1 be the same as success by a margin of 0 is explicitly called out as the right thing in some places (though I don't know what those are.) ...or I'm reading it wrong and "assign a minimum margin of 1" doesn't mean set it to 1 if it was less than 1, but rather to require a margin of success of 1 for actual success, i.e., the complete opposite.

02-10-2017, 01:25 PM	#7
Varyon Join Date: Jun 2013	Re: Treat margin of success of 0 as 1 when results for 0 would look like failure? Personally, there are a lot of times in GURPS where I feel it's appropriate to read "0" as "0.5." My alternative to Imbuements does this for the relationship between FP cost and difficulty, for example. For things that are "n*(MoS)," the result is n/2 - $1 for Panhandling, +2.5% to BL, etc. For cases where only an integer value makes sense, like the adjustment from Musical Instrument, you can either go with an in-between option (if you a Neutral reaction, but a +1 would boost that to Good, have the reaction be somewhere between those two categories) or treat +0.5 as being worth +1 half the time, +0 the other half (with music, this would either mean half your audience having a Neutral reaction and half having a Good one, or would be a 50% chance of getting a Good reaction).