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Old 09-13-2021, 03:38 PM   #41
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Silly Cars

I think 3 a side is definitely credible (with the driver being on one side as the 4th).

With the sunroof one of the passengers can certainly target the top armour of any smaller vehicle (but would almost certainly be at -2 for being out of arc). I have my own thoughts on how damage would pass through into internal components as stated in other threads but the rules as written mean you can shoot all the way through to the bottom armour. The top of the van cannot be targeted by any non-oversized vehicle so you don't have to worry about burst effects passing through the open sunroof. Unlike a turret, the sunroof passenger isn't protected by top armour and has to be targeted specifically so you are not targeting the top of the vehicle by targeting him.

Not much armour though (always a problem with vans). You could move all the top armour elsewhere, do away with the sunroof and allow every passenger 360 arcs (I'd enforce the rule that the other passengers can block LOS though). Whilst they would be at -5 to hit, they'd all be valid targets (subject to LOS) and you could normally only hit one at a time, but an area effect weapon could be devastating (and I'd say a burst effect weapon that hits one standing passenger would put any other standing passenger within the burst effect (but again nothing inside the vehicle since you are not targeting top armour).

I'd probably do away with the wheel guards as with that little armour you might as well target the van itself. Stationary it is just a bunker anyway. If you kept your speed down even though it handles like a wet bar of soap, you probably won't roll even if you loose a wheel.

The driver will need to be good and that means he'll be a rubbish gunner making that RL a bit of a crap shoot. I like the smoke rockets though :)

Even of you kill it you then have to hunt down every passenger before you remove the threat (and they are possibly even better on foot).

Oh and don't get rammed :)

Top Job, fits the brief nicely :)

Last edited by swordtart; 09-13-2021 at 03:45 PM.
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Old 09-14-2021, 01:58 PM   #42
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Default Re: Silly Cars

I'm still a bit dubious of having more than one firing port per 1/4" of counter. I've been looking at pics of actual cars, with actual people, using actual firearms. (I've also asked around My People -- I have some *very* interesting associates. :) ) The typical human is about 3' at the shoulders; add to that the need for room to maneuver, and we're at about 3&2/3', or 1/4" game-scale. And that's for the cars which fill a counter; a Subcompact is going to have even less room to maneuver for the crew.

Not a "silly" car, but another take on the "dreg gang road-raider":

Luxury, Standard chassis, Light suspension, Large power plant, 4 Standard tires, Driver, 2 Linked Heavy Rockets in Turret each w/2 shots in rocket magazine, 6 Linked Heavy Rockets Front, Metal Armor: F4, L3, R3, B3, T4, U1, 4 2-pt Metal Wheelguards, Gear Allocation: [10 lbs.], Acceleration 5, Top Speed 95, HC 0, 5490 lbs., $8300
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Old 09-14-2021, 03:35 PM   #43
swordtart
 
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Default Re: Silly Cars

Who mentioned < 1/4"?

Not me guv. I was arguing against 1/2"

All Dreg Vehicles should be silly :)

"Dreg Killer Kart Wedge" by Swordtart:
Subcompact; Standard chassis; Heavy suspension;
100 cid Engine Damaged (-5 DP); 4 gal. Duelling tank;
4 Solid Radial tires Damaged (-5 DP).
Driver w 10 pts CA
3 x Linked AP Mini Rocket F.
11 pts. Sloped LR Metal and 16 pts. Sloped Plastic (F: 6/4 R: 1/3 L: 1/3 B: 1/2 T: 1/2 U: 1/2);
Cost: $2,649, Wgt: 2,294,
HC: 5, Top Speed: 85, Accel: 10.

If you don't like using damaged components (Dreg!) just add $6750 to the price (but then it isn't really cost effective).

If you just don't like the recycled tires (a bit cheeky) you could make them Standard radials instead (they are pretty hard to hit so it probably won't put a crimp on your day). If you do that you can save 220lb that you could use for armour.

With HC 5 and decent acceleration this nippy pipsqueak can be on you before you can draw an effective bead on it. On it's own it is insignificant, in groups even a volley of 3 mini-rockets can be cumulatively effective on those without metal armour.

Combine it with an 85 mph ram (even with a 2/3 damage modifier) and it could be terminal. HC 5 means a 90 degree bend at full speed only has a 1 in 6 chance of wiping you out so you can guide it right on in. Dregs can be suicidal as it is either kill or be killed (or maybe your family killed). Spray silver paint over your mouth and yell "Witness Me". You know the schtick. If you are using cheaper tires you could add a ramplate and really put the hurt on.

1 of these took out the tractor of a rig by T-boning the side armour after letting off the rockets at point blank. Some lucky damaged rolls and it was wounded, but it was still something none of us expected (and it kinda killed the campaign). See silly :)
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Old 09-15-2021, 10:32 AM   #44
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Default Re: Silly Cars

Thanks :)

The RL is to deal with pedestrians (burst effect/riot suppression) - it's an APC for local militias. A RL is also a good building buster

120 pts of CA - tire protection needed - after people realize they'll shoot at tires and just turn it into a bunker as you said

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Top Job, fits the brief nicely :)
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Old 09-15-2021, 02:07 PM   #45
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Default Re: Silly Cars

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Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
Who mentioned < 1/4"?

Not me guv. I was arguing against 1/2"
I did say "*MORE* than one per 1/4" -- 1-per-1/4" sounds just about right, though I'd probably reduce that for Subcompacts and Compacts.

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If you don't like using damaged components (Dreg!) just add $6750 to the price (but then it isn't really cost effective).
I've always used the "dollar values" as a ersatz "points system"; IMSMC, the costs are "AADA-standard", and Actual Prices May Vary (for ex.: A "$8,000" Laser might well be upwards of five figures "over the counter" in Montana; but for purposes of AADA events, it's Eight Large).

I could see Dregs with _Killer Kart_s sourced from the dumpsters behind the arena:

Subcompact, Standard chassis, Heavy suspension, Medium power plant, 4 Standard tires, Driver, Machine Gun Front, Metal Armor: F2, L1, R1, B1, Gear Allocation: [5 lbs.], Acceleration 10, Top Speed 135, HC 4, 2295 lbs., $3588

Subcompact, Standard chassis, Heavy suspension, Medium power plant, 4 Standard tires, Driver, Micromissile Launcher Front, Metal Armor: F2, L2, R2, B2, Gear Allocation: [5 lbs.], Acceleration 10, Top Speed 135, HC 4, 2295 lbs., $3120

Subcompact, Standard chassis, Heavy suspension, Medium power plant, 4 Standard tires, Driver, Passenger, Metal Armor: F2, L2, R2, B1, Gear Allocation: [5 lbs.], Acceleration 10, Top Speed 135, HC 4, 2295 lbs., $2143
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Old 09-15-2021, 04:07 PM   #46
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Default Re: Silly Cars

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I've always used the "dollar values" as a ersatz "points system"; IMSMC, the costs are "AADA-standard", and Actual Prices May Vary (for ex.: A "$8,000" Laser might well be upwards of five figures "over the counter" in Montana; but for purposes of AADA events, it's Eight Large).
Oh those prices are not arbitrary savings based on depressed economies (from the RASG entries) or reduction from prestige etc. they are AADA-Standard salvage values (all legal and proper per the repair rules - though admittedly the tyre prices are extrapolation as they cannot be repaired according to the mechanic skill description, but they should still be cheaper than undamaged ones). If you want a 100cc with 6 DP you pay the full price. If you are willing to roll with equipment that can be killed by one shot from a VSG (or a pistol at point blank range for that matter) then you can make a significant cash saving, you pay in a different way.

A vehicle with damage is WORTH it's salvage value. No more, no less. AADA rules (or the points value) use the WORTH of the vehicle not its cost. If you are willing to field it, then it's your choice. Salvaged components can be bought (its right there on page 73 of CWC2.5).

No-one is going to repair a 1 DP 100cc plant as it isn't cost effective, but they must end up somewhere. Technically even once it loses that 1 DP and is destroyed you can still bring it back from the dead at zero cost by jury rigging it, but someone would prefer that to no plant at all so it still has some residual value among the desperate (I put it at 5% of the new price as a guess).

Of course not all components can take 5 DP damage and still be functional (and a 10% saving isn't worth the extra risk you run on having a light laser with half it's DPs gone). Others like truck plants should probably be more common (but again do you want your $100K rig manoeuvre killed because you wanted to save $8K on a salvaged plant).

Someone is bound to push it too far and consider damaged CA. Can I have damaged CA with 5 DPs for 10% of the cost of 10pts CA? Yes you can, unfortunately it still weighs as much as 10 pts of CA so it isn't necessarily the most weight effective solution. Ditto for regular armour, and if your LRFP armour has taken damage it quickly becomes beyond economic repair.

Ideally partially damaged equipment would fail occasionally, but that is not part of the rules.

Why isn't everyone doing it? The same reason people don't buy all their clothes from thrift stores (despite it being a very cost effective solution). We are social animals and have false pride. If you dress like a dreg then people will treat you like a dreg (and your prestige should probably tank).

You would probably be laughed out of a pro-arena event with a salvaged car, but spit and sawdust venues might not be as picky.
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Old 09-15-2021, 05:52 PM   #47
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Default Re: Silly Cars

I could see there being a market for jury-rigged (1DP) items - it's a cool idea. As a practical matter jury rigged items should probably have a chance to just break on a 'critical failure', and of course if broken they can never be repaired again.

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O

Why isn't everyone doing it? .
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:54 AM   #48
swordtart
 
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Default Re: Silly Cars

I did introduce a rule in my game that any damaged component had a chance to not work each time it was stressed (underwent a state change). So plants would fail to accelerate, weapons wouldn't fire etc. You could try again next phase and they would continue to operate in their current state until then. In order to reduce overhead we checked the first time it was used in combat. After a failure, once you got it going it would continue working for the rest of the combat.

In a single battle with low damage it probably wouldn't affect the outcome (and so would reflect the baseline game) but over time it would have a descernable negative effect (not being able to fire for a phase could be critical).

Jury-rigged components would be checked every time they were used but if they failed you needed to perform a jury-rig mech task to get them working again. Having a plant that could not accelerate or a gun that could not fire until you reached somewhere you could work on it would be a real disadvantage.

To clarify I make the cost of a Jury-Rigged component half the cost of the component if it had been damaged down to a single 1 DP (or that hs lost 5 DPs if it has more than 6 DPs undamaged). A jury rigged rocket would cost 45% of it's undamaged cost (1 DP damage is 90% of undamaged cost). A jury rigged Thundercat plant would cost 5% (14 DP damage is the minimum 10% and jury-rig is half that.

If you perform a successful check on each damaged component before combat (mechanics repair or jury rig roll for of that component as appropriate) you can gaurantee that it will work in the next combat it is used (but the next one suffers the ususal chance of failure). In campaigns this extra maintenance will become a pain very quickly.

For dregs, a jury-rigged rocket isn't that much of a problem as it only needs to work once. You may have to fire a MG in more than one combat before you get a chance to fix it.

Alternatively draft in some rule from GURPS or Traveller as this sort of thing is out of scope for CW.
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Old 09-16-2021, 01:58 AM   #49
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Default Re: Silly Cars

To clarify I make the cost of a Jury-Rigged component half the cost of the component if it had been damaged down to a single 1 DP (or that hs lost 5 DPs if it has more than 6 DPs undamaged). A jury rigged rocket would cost 45% of it's undamaged cost (1 DP damage is 90% of undamaged cost). A jury rigged Thundercat plant would cost 5% (14 DP damage is the minimum 10% and jury-rig is half that.

I did introduce a rule in my game that any damaged component had a chance to not work each time it was stressed (underwent a state change). So plants would fail to accelerate, weapons wouldn't fire etc. You could try again next phase and they would continue to operate in their current state until then. In order to reduce overhead we checked the first time it was used in combat. After a failure, once you got it going it would continue working for the rest of the combat. We chose to do it by combat as we assumed you would drive carefully between combats. Some non-combat encounters would be equally stressful and require checks, some "fight" encounters did not lead to actual combat so there is wiggle room.

In a single battle with low damage it probably wouldn't affect the outcome (and so would reflect the baseline game) but over time it would have a descernable negative effect (not being able to fire for a phase could be critical). Any damaged components would work as per the standard rules during the combat they took the damage, it is only in any subsequent combats that pre-existing damage can have an effect.

Jury-rigged components would be checked every time they were used but if they failed you needed to perform a jury-rig mech task to get them working again. Having a plant that could not accelerate or a gun that could not fire until you reached somewhere you could work on it would be a real disadvantage.

For dregs, a jury-rigged rocket isn't that much of a problem as it only needs to work once. You may have to fire a weapon or accelerate in more than one combat before you get a chance to fix it.

If you perform a successful preventative maintenance check on a damaged or jury-rigged component before combat (mechanics repair or jury rig roll for of that component as appropriate) you can gaurantee that it will work in the next combat it is used. In campaigns this extra maintenance will become a pain very quickly. For a dreg, salvage is their life, they have plenty of rescources to throw at this, but you may not have the option to have a mech+2 on the crew to check your damaged plant every time you pop to the shops.

When you jury-rig something the preventative maintenance check is considered perfomed at the same time, ditto if you actually restore some DPs to a damaged component.

As to what the actual chance of failure is, you need to work that out yourself. When I refereed, I changed my mind several times. Originally it was a roll on a d6 under the damage taken (so 5 DPs down meant a 5in 6 chance of failure). This made it very CW but also brutal. I toyed with percentile under damage taken, but that seemed too generous. The last attempt was rolling a d6 per point of damage and the component failed for 1 phase for every 1 that came up, so if you rolled 5 1's you had to wait for the next turn before you could try again. I think I liked this one best as rolling lots of dice seemed to underpin the amount of risk you were running with a badly damaged component without making it an automatic kill.

Alternatively draft in some rule from GURPS or Traveller as this sort of this is out of scope for CW.
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Old 09-16-2021, 01:48 PM   #50
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[nod] Given some of the stuff I've seen restored on YouTube, I can see where even a "destroyed" item might be able to be rescued. As noted: It's a question of "is it worth doing?".

The idea of a j-r-ed component having a chance to fail is a good one; it puts some risk into deliberately buying "cheap" items.

That said: I'm also looking at the side of the matter where the AADA Inspector says "Yeah, it's all well and good you picked up that MG and ammo for $500 from the scrapper; it's still valued at $1,500 in the arena." This is why at "formal" arena events everyone starts with "new" equipment -- there's no point in doing otherwise. (I'd expect to see "scrapyard specials" at BLUD events.)
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