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Old 01-19-2022, 01:31 PM   #11
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Details about the cestus

Oh, I'd bet a frajillion dollars that it is just an oversight - like many other similar instances. Probably the one significant flaw to the ruleset as a whole is that there is a set of a dozen or so rules governing specialized weapons and combat techniques that come in sets of parallel or closely related concepts but differ for seemingly arbitrary reasons, or are inconsistent with each other, or are uninterpretable without house rules or clarifications. There is really nothing to be done about it at this point; they were not cleaned up in revision, I don't think they warrant a new edition, and the design team doesn't want to send out errata that might just muddy the waters further. The best you can do is create your own house rule statements to fill in gaps or paper over inconsistencies.
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Old 01-19-2022, 01:53 PM   #12
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Indiana
Default Re: Details about the cestus

I guess that I look at it in a very simple manner.

The only place in ITL where it calls out the Cestus is BHD+3 is in the HTH description on P. 122. In fact, that's the only place I see Cestus damage numbers mentioned. Since the Cestus is a gaunlet worn on the hand, it is effectively part of the hand with respect to combat. Therefore, it can easily be concluded that a Cestus +3 to BHD. Unless, there is a reasonable reference elsewhere in Melee or ITL that defines cestus damage, this is what we have with which to work.

Having been an engineer for well over 30 years, I tend to look at such things in terms of it being a system or process. A Cestus is a system enhancement to BHD. Bare hands have damage (BHD) based upon ST. Cesti add points of damage to BHD. Cesti damage points are only defined in one place. Until the rules are rewritten, that's the hand to which we have been dealt.

To end my post with some geeky humor:
A doctor, lawyer, and engineer were at the golf course. Ahead of them was a group of blind golfers. Some of the other golfers were getting impatient waiting for them. The doctor said, "Isn't it great that they are participating in activities in spite of their handicap?!" The lawyer said, "It's great that they are asserting their civil rights as handicapped persons." The engineer simply asked, "Why can't those guys play at night." (No personal judgement. Just looking for the most efficient process for all golfers.)

Last edited by Bill_in_IN; 01-19-2022 at 02:23 PM.
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Old 01-19-2022, 01:58 PM   #13
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Details about the cestus

The description of the cestus in its text section and the weapon tables also say the damage is based on Strength. No further details are given there, so the section by the HTH damage table is the only real source for specifics.
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Old 01-19-2022, 02:22 PM   #14
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
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Default Re: Details about the cestus

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
The description of the cestus in its text section and the weapon tables also say the damage is based on Strength. No further details are given there, so the section by the HTH damage table is the only real source for specifics.
I concur.

It's the best with which we have to work.
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Old 01-19-2022, 02:41 PM   #15
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: Details about the cestus

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
The description of the cestus in its text section and the weapon tables also say the damage is based on Strength. No further details are given there, so the section by the HTH damage table is the only real source for specifics.
I agree. Here's what I'm thinking.

(1) Melee and HTH damage is bare hands damage + 3, so like a one-handed club in melee and a dagger or main gauche in HTH.

(2) Cannot be dropped, voluntarily or otherwise.

(3) Whatever weapon is in the right hand, a left-handed cestus can also strike at -4 adjDX.

(4) A cestus in the left hand can stop one hit at -1 adjDX.

I'm not entirely satisfied. As you'll notice, I'm ignoring the "both strike at -3 DX" explicit in the rules, because I'm reckoning that the second attack of a main-gauche applies and the second attack of a main gauche is just better than two strikes at -3 DX (unless adjDX is 18 or 19, which is rare enough to ignore). As you suggested, Lars, perhaps it is just an oversight to include the -3 DX for both strikes part of the rules.

I'm also not sure whether a cestus was used to parry (and thus block one hit), but what else could "treated exactly like a main-gauche" mean?
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Old 01-19-2022, 03:16 PM   #16
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Details about the cestus

Your approach is better than RAW in that it is consistent with some things in RAW, consistent with treatment of other weapons doing similar things, and consistent with itself. It's only drawback is it ignores something RAW does say (the -3 for two attacks rule), although that thing probably deserves to be ignored since it duplicates and is inconsistent with another thing it says. So, overall I think you've got a good read on the situation.
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Old 01-19-2022, 08:30 PM   #17
TippetsTX
 
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Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: North Texas
Default Re: Details about the cestus

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I'm also not sure whether a cestus was used to parry (and thus block one hit), but what else could "treated exactly like a main-gauche" mean?
Depends on which version of the weapon you assume this talent refers to. I visualize it as something that covers the fighter's entire forearm as well as their hands. Effectively, this makes cestus a combo w/ bracers, but that sufficiently explains their ability to block hits in my mind.

Unfortunately, that version is not something the character can take on/off very easily. And they certainly don't allow for actions requiring nimble fingers.
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Old 01-19-2022, 10:25 PM   #18
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Details about the cestus

I like to picture the crazy forearm vambrace/stabby thing from the first Conan movie
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