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Old 11-17-2009, 07:46 AM   #11
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Default Re: Knife hidden in a sword hilt

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Originally Posted by The Grand Cliche View Post
In a recent game, one of the players was thinking about ordering a custom sword for his character, a normal sized bastard or long sword, but with a concealed knife in the hilt. With a twist of the hilt, the knife comes out. This is supposed to be a last-ditch weapon for the fighter.

How would this affect the behaviour of the sword? Since half of the hilt is missing, including the pommel, I gather balancing would be problematic.

Something like a -2 penalty to sword skill if the knife is missing? No pummeling or two-hander grips?
I had a toy sword with that feature when I bwas four. The toy sword with dagger out did not, handle all that differently IIRC. Assuming a sturdy enough hollow handle and the insert dagger is centerlined when inside, the only balance issue would be a shift of center of mass towards the point. Not that big a problem as the hand has a tight grip on the handle and the wrist can compensate. -2, but a a familiarity penalty and temporary.
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Old 11-17-2009, 07:47 AM   #12
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Default Re: Knife hidden in a sword hilt

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Originally Posted by RobKamm View Post
From the description it sounds like this dagger would replace the sword's tang -- an extension of the blade that extends all the way to the end of the pommel. Losing this would be a really bad idea. I would argue that such a sword automatically break if it was used to parry a heavy weapon, and would have a chance to break on even a good stout hit.

In a cinematic game I wouldn't have too much of a problem (Hollywood <> Reality), but if game-world physics even vaguely resembles the real world's this would be a big problem.
Hmmm...

I don't think you could do a knife...however a needle pointed dirk/stiletto (ie use the Knife skill possibly with a minus give in impale damage about like a dagger and a weight of somewhat less) might be doable it the sword tang itself has a channel for the needle to slide into...

However I agree with the general tone of the thread little real world useage but if I had a player who wanted it I would let him look around for a while for a sufficently talented smith spend roughly 2X the cost for the sword + dagger (your merchant roll again pls (guess what the armorers Merchant speciality is?)... then I would give him something approximating the a/m...

YMMV
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Old 11-17-2009, 11:14 AM   #13
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Default Re: Knife hidden in a sword hilt

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Hmmm...

I don't think you could do a knife...however a needle pointed dirk/stiletto (ie use the Knife skill possibly with a minus give in impale damage about like a dagger and a weight of somewhat less) might be doable it the sword tang itself has a channel for the needle to slide into...

However I agree with the general tone of the thread little real world useage but if I had a player who wanted it I would let him look around for a while for a sufficently talented smith spend roughly 2X the cost for the sword + dagger (your merchant roll again pls (guess what the armorers Merchant speciality is?)... then I would give him something approximating the a/m...

YMMV
2x is too cheap. I stipulated a str=urdy hollow handle and aproperly centerlined knife. Defing that a little better: Fine or very fine quality in GURPS terms. At least 4x cost.
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Old 11-17-2009, 01:35 PM   #14
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Default Re: Knife hidden in a sword hilt

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Originally Posted by The Grand Cliche View Post
The knife would be for ... throwing.
I'm afraid I don't think this would work. The pommel on a long sword or bastard sword is there in large part as a counterweight to the blade. From what it looks like, the knife that pulls out is intended to take the pommel with it. Said knife is going to be significantly overbalanced by the pommel; most attempts to throw it accurately are going to result in it hitting the target pommel first. I'd imagine ninne times out of ten, you're just going to thump your target for crushing damage and not very much of that, either.
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Old 11-17-2009, 02:29 PM   #15
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Default Re: Knife hidden in a sword hilt

Bit of gadgeteering maybe?
Pommel sheathed dagger. Upper section of pommel is twist-off but, as you twist it free of the sword, it engages a knife blade.

Increase the ST required (need bigger hands to fit the deeper grip) or make it HT-1 (blade detracts from grip integrity), and x4 cost.

In a setting where tying swords to their sheathes in peaceful locales is normal, eg visiting the nobility, it would be very naughty, possibly a Secret [-10] Utter Rejection. Then the player'd be eating into his Disadv limit simply for a fancy sword.
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Old 11-17-2009, 02:43 PM   #16
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Default Re: Knife hidden in a sword hilt

For what it's worth, the idea has been explored in fiction. I recall a short story in one of Marion Zimmer Bradley's "Sword & Sorceress" collections in which a warrior wielding her mother's sword has the blade break in a fight ... and then discovers the dagger concealed in the hilt, which she had never known about before.

It may not be realistic, but it can be dramatically interesting.
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Old 11-17-2009, 02:58 PM   #17
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Default Re: Knife hidden in a sword hilt

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2x is too cheap. I stipulated a str=urdy hollow handle and aproperly centerlined knife. Defing that a little better: Fine or very fine quality in GURPS terms. At least 4x cost.
Well it depends...for 2x base cost he gets an average weapon (and unless he has popped a lot of points into merchant and has the right speciality of merchant figure he probably loses the contest with the smith/merchant by 4 or 5 figure another 20-25% on top) extra cost is to make a "workable" weapon.

If he wants a "fine" weapon with these features then take the cost multiple for fine or VF then 2x that...then mod for losing the Merchant contest.

However I would not mandate that the weapon must be Fine or VF...I would allow a moderately above average SWORDSMITH to handle the modifications taking about 2x the normal time approx.

Thanks for the info tho.
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Old 11-17-2009, 03:21 PM   #18
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Default Re: Knife hidden in a sword hilt

Not certain about costs, but here's an idea of what you're looking at.

Sword+Knife: The whole shebang. This is the sword when the knife is still in the hilt. It may be of any quality in terms of balance and materials, but always treat it as Cheap in terms of breakage (due to the lack of a tang).

Sword: When lacking the knife, the sword no longer has its counterweight nor half of its hilt. It cannot be used with the Two-Handed Sword skill (unless you can grip the ricasso in a Defensive Grip - you'd better be wearing gauntlets or have a dull ricasso), and the sword is considered Cheap in terms of balance. Finally, increase effective MinST by 1 (but do not change MaxST). Otherwise, treat the same as Sword+Knife.

Knife: A Fine (Balance) sword+knife combo yields a Cheap (Balance) knife - the hilt of the knife is simply too heavy. Similarly, a Fine (Balance) knife yields a Cheap (Balance) sword - in this case, the knife's hilt is simply too light to serve as a proper counterbalance for the sword. Material quality of the knife has not influence on the sword (and vice versa).

Weapon Bond: If you have a Weapon Bond with the weapon, it is only for one form (Sword+Knife, Sword alone, or Knife alone).


That's probably a realistic perspective. For a cinematic campaign, the sword portion doesn't have any material or balance issues, the knife's stats are completely divorced from those of the sword, and a single Weapon Bond applies to the sword regardless of if the knife is incorporated or not.

For enchantments, it's completely up to the GM. An interesting paradigm might be if the knife is enchanted (or further enchanted), and you actually have multiple knives - thus, depending on which one you "slot in," you get different effects from the sword (one knife gives it fire abilities, one gives it lightning, one makes it deal more outright damage, etc).
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Old 11-17-2009, 06:52 PM   #19
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Default Re: Knife hidden in a sword hilt

I think that if it's pulled out like in the ASCII drawing, there's no problems at all. The tang could still be in there, both the tang and the blade just offset a little bit. Maybe a slightly heavier or lighter pommel to keep the balance true.

I'd just add the price of a dagger to the price of the sword and require a Ready maneuver to draw it. Maybe start at 15% greater asking price and haggle down to 5-10% over. I certainly wouldn't give the sword or dagger any negative modifiers or anything like that, no way. The sword maker would easily compensate for the design.

Anytime a player wants something just for cool factor that really has no real combat value above normal equipment list, there's no way in hell I would penalize him or not give it. It's a game and that's part of the fun -- having cool little trick things like that.

Now, if he wanted sword-chucks, we'd have to have a talk.
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Old 11-17-2009, 07:40 PM   #20
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Default Re: Knife hidden in a sword hilt

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]Anytime a player wants something just for cool factor that really has no real combat value above normal equipment list, there's no way in hell I would penalize him or not give it. It's a game and that's part of the fun -- having cool little trick things like that.

Now, if he wanted sword-chucks, we'd have to have a talk.
Ah but I wouldn't penalize him...yes the sword would cost him more IN CASH...but assuming he is playing the swashbuckler/bravo that type of spending for the "cool" factor would likely get him a bonus in the "is he roleplaying what he wrote" column (ie extra cp).

After all there are certainly powergamers out and about but if a player is doing it for style it might cost him more in cash but still advance the character's development...

YMMV of course...but while toys are cool CP's rule.
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