Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-26-2024, 09:09 AM   #6611
Astromancer
 
Astromancer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: West Virginia
Default Re: New Reality Seeds

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGLS View Post
Wow. People in the early long 19th century were really silly. Like, if the Thirty Years War didn't finish Europe off, then I can't imagine how Napoleon would.

You probably need to seriously up the firepower of Napoleonic era armies if you want to have an apocalypse like that happen. Maybe have Lavoisier escape the national razor (perhaps he doesn't get involved in tax farming at all?) and him develop chemical weapons that Napoleon uses to great effect, which in turn are imitated by Russia, Prussia and Austria. Or maybe you could have his work in gunpowder unexpectedly lead to Fuel Air Explosives somehow, if you want to smash up the things of Continental Europe too.
I only claimed it was something that was discussed in period. Every time period has its own crazy scenarios. Look at 1970s Sci Fi. We in 2024 are supposed to be living in a post-apocalyptic wasteland, with vast floods of people everywhere, and the air far to polluted to breathe without a mask, and a dozen other horror scenarios besides.

Post-apocalyptic Swashbuckling seems like something new.
__________________
Per Ardua Per Astra!


Ancora Imparo
Astromancer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2024, 10:07 AM   #6612
TGLS
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Default Re: New Reality Seeds

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Humans have been capable of apocalyptic genocide of other humans for a while. All that is required is either really heavy use of scorched earth tactics or an intentional drive for genocide.
I mean, fair enough, but I'd expect if somebody pulled that off in early 19th century Europe, the group that did that would still be alive. Unless the point is that the British did it, which seems to miss the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astromancer View Post
I only claimed it was something that was discussed in period.
I mean, I was more reflecting on "Justinian's efforts in Italy destroyed the classical period" as really silly. Like, "Forget the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, the Gothic invasions, the Huns, changing cultural norms, and the Bubonic plague. It's all Justinian's Fault." That historiography is just dumb and probably has more to do with anti-Byzantinism than actually thinking things through.
__________________
Oh boy, GURPS! That's where I'm a Viking!

Last edited by TGLS; 11-26-2024 at 10:16 AM.
TGLS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2024, 02:07 PM   #6613
fchase8
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: New York, NY
Default Re: New Reality Seeds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astromancer View Post
I know that. I used him as the harbinger of doom.
Could try combining General Trotsky sweeping into Europe with an extended Spanish Flu for the full apocalyptic effect. Western Europe & Scandinavia would try to hold out, some sort proto-Maginot line from Benelux through to the Alps, but would have to deal with socialists among their own populations, and general war/illness-weary population. Britain & America quitting The Continent could lead to a collapse.

And Spanish Civil War could start early, overthrow of the monarchy leading to not to a Republic but infighting (think Homage To Catalonia infighting). Portugal, Italy, Greece could also suffer - perhaps even the redoubt of Switzerland.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Astromancer View Post
Try this idea. Many people in the 1795-1807 period thought that Napoleon would destroy Europe like Justinian's attempts to reconquer Italy destroyed the Classical period. Picture a post-apocalyptic 1840 with the British Isles and maybe Portugal as the sole remnants of civilization in Europe. Things to Come moved back thirteen decades or so.
Bonaparte-1 has the Napoleonic Empire collapsing in the 1850s. Whatever came afterwards wouldn't be The Shape of Things To Come, but certainly weak - though Russia was strong on this timeline, likely dominating The Continent.

To take the Napoleonic Wars to apocalyptic destruction, how about throw in its own Spanish Flu a century earlier? Its spread could explain why the likes of Britain & Russia stayed out of the continental wars.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Astromancer View Post
I only claimed it was something that was discussed in period. Every time period has its own crazy scenarios. Look at 1970s Sci Fi. We in 2024 are supposed to be living in a post-apocalyptic wasteland, with vast floods of people everywhere, and the air far to polluted to breathe without a mask, and a dozen other horror scenarios besides.
I'm reading Greybeard, and it's set in the post-apocalyptic year of 2029 (with chapters detailing some earlier decades), after a nuclear detonation in space renders humanity infertile.

It was written in 1964 (the forward denounces Children of Men and even the movie) - even has mention of the ruins of an ancient civilization found in Mars (it also has sixties sexism & racism, as much a part of the background as the radiation).
fchase8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2024, 03:06 PM   #6614
cptbutton
 
cptbutton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Default Re: New Reality Seeds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astromancer View Post
I know that. I used him as the harbinger of doom.

Try this idea. Many people in the 1795-1807 period thought that Napoleon would destroy Europe like Justinian's attempts to reconquer Italy destroyed the Classical period. Picture a post-apocalyptic 1840 with the British Isles and maybe Portugal as the sole remnants of civilization in Europe. Things to Come moved back thirteen decades or so.
I recall a character in Poul Anderson "There Will Be Time" saying that it would have been better if Napoleon's conquest of Europe had stuck, because it could then reform from within without more wars.

I am told that alternate history written in French has lots of alternate Napoleon stuff in the same way that alternate history written in English has lots of US Civil War stuff.
__________________
--
Burma!
cptbutton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2024, 07:36 PM   #6615
Astromancer
 
Astromancer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: West Virginia
Default Re: New Reality Seeds

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptbutton View Post
I recall a character in Poul Anderson "There Will Be Time" saying that it would have been better if Napoleon's conquest of Europe had stuck, because it could then reform from within without more wars.

I am told that alternate history written in French has lots of alternate Napoleon stuff in the same way that alternate history written in English has lots of US Civil War stuff.
Well Napoleon is one of the most overwhelming facts in European history. It's also the last period before photography. There are no photographs of Napoleon, Byron, Keats, Shelley, and so many other key figures. Meanwhile Wordsworth, Quincy Addams, and Andrew Jackson, we can see in clear romance shattering detail. And like the ACW, the Napoleonic wars seem to be full of missed possibilities that could radically transform everything.
__________________
Per Ardua Per Astra!


Ancora Imparo
Astromancer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2024, 02:15 PM   #6616
Astromancer
 
Astromancer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: West Virginia
Default Re: New Reality Seeds

When using a pandemic to alter history most people hit on the Spanish Flu. This isn't surprising, erasing WWII, the Nazis, the Soviets and so much of what shaped the 20th century in one fell swoop is dramatic but there was a flu pandemic in 1957-58. The Asian Flu as it was caused killed millions, but mainly in Asia.

Picture the Asian Flu killing more than two orders of magnitude more people. Eight hundred million out of a population of two billion. Let's assume that Asia is hit hardest with Africa getting mauled too.

Japan, China, the Koreas, would all have taken decades to recover. Russia being Eurasian would have been severely disrupted. The Vietnam wars started well before the 1950s ( The Quiet American by Graham Greene was actually a pro French Colonial novel that argued America needed to stay out of Vietnam because they wouldn't have outlawed Buddhism) but American involvement would probably be short circuited. The whole late 1960s derailment of Breton Woods would have been less likely too.

Although Japan wasn't quite as technologically innovative as some people say, Japan brought a great number of technological innovations to market and integrated technology into daily life at impressive speed. So the tech level could be identical but with far less actual use of technology in daily life.

It would be a profoundly altered world even if many changes are subtle.
__________________
Per Ardua Per Astra!


Ancora Imparo

Last edited by Astromancer; 11-30-2024 at 02:31 PM.
Astromancer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2024, 11:45 AM   #6617
cptbutton
 
cptbutton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Default Re: New Reality Seeds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astromancer View Post
Picture the Asian Flu killing more than two orders of magnitude more people. Eight hundred million out of a population of two billion. Let's assume that Asia is hit hardest with Africa getting mauled too.
This is a world where quarantines are going to be a very big deal. International travel will be much more difficult and less common. Trade not quite as much, but also greatly less than OTL. I'd expected there will be a sort of closed city adjacent to major ports of entry where people have to stay for a designated period, or until they are cleared.
__________________
--
Burma!
cptbutton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2024, 01:15 PM   #6618
Astromancer
 
Astromancer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: West Virginia
Default Re: New Reality Seeds

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptbutton View Post
This is a world where quarantines are going to be a very big deal. International travel will be much more difficult and less common. Trade not quite as much, but also greatly less than OTL. I'd expected there will be a sort of closed city adjacent to major ports of entry where people have to stay for a designated period, or until they are cleared.
That makes sense. Because I picture most of the deaths happening in Asia (as if the historical 1957-58 flu pandemic) These trends would be strongest in Asia. But with two-fifths of humanity dying, no place would be untouched.

Public Health would be more of a thing. The states might have adopted Health Care on the single payer model as a reaction.
__________________
Per Ardua Per Astra!


Ancora Imparo
Astromancer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2024, 04:09 PM   #6619
cptbutton
 
cptbutton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Default Re: New Reality Seeds

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptbutton View Post
This is a world where quarantines are going to be a very big deal. International travel will be much more difficult and less common. Trade not quite as much, but also greatly less than OTL. I'd expected there will be a sort of closed city adjacent to major ports of entry where people have to stay for a designated period, or until they are cleared.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astromancer View Post
That makes sense. Because I picture most of the deaths happening in Asia (as if the historical 1957-58 flu pandemic) These trends would be strongest in Asia. But with two-fifths of humanity dying, no place would be untouched.

Public Health would be more of a thing. The states might have adopted Health Care on the single payer model as a reaction.
Since this is still in the era of atomic powered everything*, I see part of the barrier around the port area will be irradiation bunkers for sterilizing all non-living cargo. Which could give you a lot of superbeings if the game swings that way...

* And because the health effects of lower level ionizing radiation may get less medical research since infectious and contagious diseases get more.
__________________
--
Burma!
cptbutton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2024, 09:09 AM   #6620
ericthered
Hero of Democracy
 
ericthered's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
Default Re: New Reality Seeds

From a different thread:

Quote:
... rescuing napolean from St. Helena...
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
The Chileans thought about this on Homeline. They were getting well-organised by 1820, with a decent quality small navy and the British guard force had been reduced. They were pretty sure they could extract him by force.

They wanted him so that they could conquer and rule South America. There were a couple of problems:
  • This was going to annoy the British quite a lot. Was it worth war with them?
  • Can we control him, or will we end up with him in charge? He's better at empires than us.
As it happened, he died while they were still thinking about it. Infinity doesn't have to worry about the first problem, but the second is definitely an issue.
That's probably a fun little alternate right there: were the Chileans grab napoleon and he gets a career in South America.

what happens next? Do the British invade in response? Does he unite south America? Does he die of Stomach Cancer? Does he simply return to France again and get executed this time? All of this can make for a different world.
__________________
Be helpful, not pedantic

Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog

Check out the PbP forum! If you don't see a game you'd like, ask me about making one!
ericthered is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ideas to share, infinite worlds, infinity unlimited

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.