[MH] Gun Wielding Foes

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

I agree with Brandon that if you're pitting your hunters against a roomful of goons with guns, they're not going to have skill in the 15-17 range. Consider that cultists -- who are not mooks, but are considered semi-dangerous foes! -- have Guns (Pistol)-14. It's less realistic for them to be experts with rifles; in fact, I'd use the default Guns (Rifle)-12 off of the Pistol skill.

A cultist with Guns (Pistol)-14 is a phenomenal shot. No, really. Most active duty cops will be in the 8-12 range, mostly 8-10, unless they really take their firearms training seriously. Guns (Rifle)-12 is as good as most infantrymen.

On the range, someone with Guns (Pistol)-14 will be operating at something like +8 due to no risk to self, no stake in the outcome, known range, etc. This person, using an Acc 3 pistol making AoA (Determined) and Bracing with two hands on the gun, will make sighted shots with a net of 24, and aimed shots with a net of 27. Firing three times with Rcl 2, he'll be able to target vitals (11" circular target) and hit all three 90% of the time with a -3 range modifier (7 yards), and with a second of Aim can do it at 20 yards. This is very good shooting, even on a range.

In combat, at 7-10 yards (-3 to -4 for range), which is within most rooms, doing AoA (Determined) and Braced, they'll be shooting torso at 13- to hit the torso once, and on the average they can expect to hit twice. Every turn. If they choose, they can aim for Vitals and expect one hit every time they shoot.

If they use cover, they can absorb the -2 pop-up penalty for opportunity fire and still expect to hit what they aim at with one bullet.

This of course, is barring good use of cover and Luck by PCs, and perhaps the Wildcard! skills mitigate this (I've not assimilated those rules yet). But EACH "cultist" with Pistol-14 is a death machine all by himself. Several are a severe tactical challenge unless you enter knowing that they're there AND having pre-decided on a gunfight as the solution to the problem.

Do not underestimate Guns skills in the 12-14 range if you want live PCs. Most groups of "cultists" should not have uniform firearms skills higher than first-world military powers' infantrymen, and common SWAT teams (uncommon troops, like Rangers or uncommon SWAT teams or FBI HRT will have much higher skills, of course).

dhc

[starslayer]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Out of curiousity, why would it be less realistic to be an expert with a rifle than a pistol? I would have thought for 'generic people who are not Police types' it would be much more common for folks to be good with rifles than handguns?

I think it has to do with the ease of illegal acquisition. Though I think that statement needs to be qualified as 'in the United States it is easier to get a pistol then a rifle'- you have a very pistol oriented subculture that encourages most of illegal weapons transactions to be for pistols.

However if the adventure were to be taking place in Africa, the middle east, anywhere former USSR, India, and even many parts of eastern Europe- rifles are the norm, pistols are rare and unheard of things, and the AK-47 is the poor man's rifle.

[Kalzazz]

Ah, well, its just most people I know shoot a lot more with rifles than they do with pistols . . . . . pistols seem much likelier to gather dust in closets if they are owned at all, while rifles seem to be a very common weekend recreational thing and death to soda cans etc

edit - in the US its much easier to get a rifle or a shotgun than a pistol, I can walk in to any gun show or pawn shop or gun store around and pick one right up for a certain outlay of cash (and if I'm poor thats what Mosin-Nagants are for, or like the inexpensive Mossberg rifles which come brand new scope and all for like 300). Pistols I can only legally buy one in my home state of XYZ, which is seriously annoying,

You can't buy AK-47s freely and easily I'll admit but they use the same skill as normal US rifles you can get, so I figure goons would be more likely to know how to use them (presumably their employer provides the AK-47s, if your willing to summon the Great C'thulhu your also willing to defy the ATF)

[Danukian]

Originally Posted by starslayer

I think it has to do with the ease of illegal acquisition. Though I think that statement needs to be qualified as 'in the United States it is easier to get a pistol then a rifle'- you have a very pistol oriented subculture that encourages most of illegal weapons transactions to be for pistols.

However if the adventure were to be taking place in Africa, the middle east, anywhere former USSR, India, and even many parts of eastern Europe- rifles are the norm, pistols are rare and unheard of things, and the AK-47 is the poor man's rifle.

I disagree: In the US, you can buy a rifle or shotgun at any sporting goods store and many supermarkets, training for such is readily available for cheap - sometimes even free, depending on any social organizations you might belong. Pistols require a waiting period and training is a little harder to come by. Gangers with illegal guns tend to shoot by default, and despite the large number of illegal pistols in the US, in pales in comparison to the number of rifles and shotguns.

[Danukian]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

You can't buy AK-47s freely and easily I'll admit but they use the same skill as normal US rifles you can get, so I figure goons would be more likely to know how to use them (presumably their employer provides the AK-47s, if your willing to summon the Great C'thulhu your also willing to defy the ATF)

Well, you can grab a SKS cheap at any gun show, and $10-15 and a few minutes, you can convert it to an AK. Not legally, of course, but minions of C'thulhu don't need to worry themselves about gun laws.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Danukian

I disagree: In the US, you can buy a rifle or shotgun at any sporting goods store and many supermarkets, training for such is readily available for cheap - sometimes even free, depending on any social organizations you might belong. Pistols require a waiting period and training is a little harder to come by. Gangers with illegal guns tend to shoot by default, and despite the large number of illegal pistols in the US, in pales in comparison to the number of rifles and shotguns.

There are more pistols here (as a percentage of firearms) than in, frex, Canada.

I think you could argue pretty easily that pistols are more commonly found being sold on the black market. But I'd bet they're still less than 2/3 of the total weapons trade in the US.

And I think that it's actually generally harder to train to high levels of proficiency with a pistol, simply because their range is so short and if you want to improve past a certain point you need to set up active/moving targets. Meanwhile you can go from a target at 50 yards with a rifle out to 500+, and actually go out and practice those skill on actual living things while hunting. I don't find it unreasonable that a guy who spent his whole life going deer hunting would have a skill of 14. I do find it a bit off to assume anyone who hasn't been through some pretty extreme training involving live fire shoot houses or similar stuff has a pistol skill that high.

[Danukian]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

There are more pistols here (as a percentage of firearms) than in, frex, Canada.

I think you could argue pretty easily that pistols are more commonly found being sold on the black market. But I'd bet they're still less than 2/3 of the total weapons trade in the US.

And I think that it's actually generally harder to train to high levels of proficiency with a pistol, simply because their range is so short and if you want to improve past a certain point you need to set up active/moving targets. Meanwhile you can go from a target at 50 yards with a rifle out to 500+, and actually go out and practice those skill on actual living things while hunting. I don't find it unreasonable that a guy who spent his whole life going deer hunting would have a skill of 14. I do find it a bit off to assume anyone who hasn't been through some pretty extreme training involving live fire shoot houses or similar stuff has a pistol skill that high.

I'm slightly confused: The word choices you used make it sound like you are disagreeing with me, but your points agree with me 100%: While pistols are FAR more common in the US the almost anywhere else in the world, the do not account for 1/3rd of the firearms in the US; Training for rifles is common in the US, but high skill in Pistol is rare outside Tactical Units.

[Nosforontu]

I have limited experience running MH games so far but this is my own experience so far in the game.

1: Armor 12/5 Tactical vests are pretty much universal among my group usually with a long leather Jacket with another 1 point of DR. This gives them DR 13 against Bullets in the torso which reduces the average damage of 5d6 assault rifles of 17.5 to 4.5 points of damage per hit. Probably needing 3-4 hits before the PC needs to roll versus unconsciousness.

While even a 4d6 damage .50 Caliber pistol with its average damage of 14 points of damage only does 1 point of damage to the torso on a average hit.

While DR 35/5 Advanced Vests can simply stop non armor piercing damage completely in the torso.

2: Hit Negation. Champions have luck at least every hour, high dodge scores, combat reflexes, possibly Destiny and appropriate Wild card skills to turn multiple hits into misses. Getting multiple hits on a PC in a round or even in an entire fight can be fairly rare in game play so far.

3: Mook moral. Mooks are not known for their good tactical choices compared to players especially considering the craziness that MH Champion is capable of. When your parties techie spends some time to make custom armor and melee weapons for the were bear and said were bear charges down a cultist who is armed with nothing better than a pistol standing their spending a second to brace and aim the shot seems rather suicidal.

Instead that fight featured several mook cultist running around with their weapons essentially taking snap shot at players splitting their firepower trying to decide on the fly which very scary person they need to shoot, while their fellow mooks are being hammered on left and right by the PCs.

4: Recovery Not sure what your MH team consists of but Sages or Witches with healing charms or other defensive charms can start changing the odds of a fight significantly as can a Techie who starts making the party cutting edge toys.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

I don't find it unreasonable that a guy who spent his whole life going deer hunting would have a skill of 14. I do find it a bit off to assume anyone who hasn't been through some pretty extreme training involving live fire shoot houses or similar stuff has a pistol skill that high.

Agreed on the Pistol. However, Guns (Rifle)-14 still might be a bit high, even for a lifetime hunter.

Let's see what skill you need to bag an animal that's SM+0 at 300 yards (-13)

You're going for the vitals (-3).

You want to hit almost every time (14 or less final roll).

You fire once, after Aim, Brace, and extra aim.

let's assume a .308 or .30-06 rifle, Acc 5, with a x10 scope (+3).

Aim (+5), Scope (+3), Extra Time to Aim (+3), AoA (Determined) (+1), Braced (+1). Total of +13, which cancels out the range.

Situational Modifiers:
Speed/range precisely known: nope/not necessarily
No risk to self: yep, +1
No risk to others: yep, +1
No political/military stake in the outcome: Let's say you have a survival stake in the outcome, perhaps, and not give credit here.
Environment: not a range situation, no modifier.
Net: +2

Unless I miss something, to take a deer in the Vitals at 300yds reliably (which is a long shot for most hunting situations) you need about Guns (Rifle)-15.

That's higher than I'd have thought one needed . . . any modifiers I'm missing?

Doug

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Danukian

I'm slightly confused: The word choices you used make it sound like you are disagreeing with me, but your points agree with me 100%: While pistols are FAR more common in the US the almost anywhere else in the world, the do not account for 1/3rd of the firearms in the US; Training for rifles is common in the US, but high skill in Pistol is rare outside Tactical Units.

I was just noting that while pistols ARE more common than in the US than in other places, that doesn't make them the majority of firearms owned or regularly practiced with.

So agree with you for the most part, but I do think there's a smidge of truth to the fact that pistols may be more common here in the US than in other places.