Revised Administrative Rank Table for Modern/Sci-Fi Settings

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

So, thoughts?

You might find the Extent scale from Sagatafl, my homebrew RPG system, useful, because it's something I've put quite some thought into, to achieve a smooth and gradual scaling all the way from the very local to the very large:

Village (or Dispersed Community - typically scattered forest dwellers)
Town or Parish
City or County
Megapolis or Region
Small Nation
Medium Nation
Large Nation
Continent
Planet
(intermediate step: Planet+orbits+moons)
Inner Solar System
Solar System
Galactic sub-Sector
Galactic Sector
Galactic Super-Sector
Galactic Region
Galactic Slice (or Galactic Core, if habitable)
Galaxy

One can of course have additional intermediate steps, e.g. a Large City which is the same as a Small Megapolis, or a Medium-Large Nation, or a Large Galaxy.

A normal Galaxy is meant to be divided into seven sections, a Core and six Slices each adjacent to the core. At that level it's treated as a 2-dimensional thing. After that, each Slice and the Core is divided into numerous Regions in a distinctly 3D fashion (perhaps 5 by 5 by 4, which largely fits our Galaxy), and further sub-divisions continue from that. (For a large Galaxy, you might want to have 8 or even 9 sliches plus a Core, or only 4 or 5 for a Small Galaxy.)

Nation sizes depend in part on population, in part by area (including travel and communication time), and also of course on Tech Level (TeL). In modern terms, Europe counts as a Continent only because of economic and political power - it's quite possible, although it would sadden me, that Europe will be functionally just a Large Nation 75 Years from now.

The USA is an example of a Large Nation, in modern terms, with countries like France, Germany and the UK being Medium Nations, and Denmark, Sweden and so forth Small Nations (if you want to quibble, Sweden could be an intermediate Small-Medium case).

Note also that not all soverign nations qualify as Nations. Iceland, for instance, is arguably a City, unless I'm misremembering its population size.

In a medieval setting, the criteria for a Large or Medium Nation are of course more modest, but often it still fits: Denmark, Svealand and Geatland as Small Nations, Britain or England a Medium Nation, Charlemagne's Empire arguably a Large Nation (original Roman Empire might be a Continent, or maybe just a Large Nation - that could be a highly relevant question if someone wants to do a Fvlminata campaign).

I also have notes for modifying the "Extent" level system to fit a 2D Galaxy, in case someone wants to use Sagatafl for the Traveller setting, but that is not something I've given a great deal of thought to.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by robkelk

There are places outside of the USA where "city" and "county" are the same - Ottawa, Toronto, Hamilton, Windsor, Montreal, and Quebec City are just a few.

There are places inside the US where city and county are the same, e.g., the City and County of San Francisco.

[Ashtagon]

Surely the simplest approach would be some kind of logarithm-based formula. Authority over 100 people = Status 1, and each x10 (or x100 for some steps) on that is +1 Status?

Things get weird of course at the lower end, where negative Status is possible.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by Ashtagon

Authority over 100 people = Status 1

Authority over people is usually Rank, Legal Enforcement Powers etc.

[Ashtagon]

Originally Posted by Agemegos

Authority over people is usually Rank, Legal Enforcement Powers etc.

You're right -- that's pretty much Rank (local government), not Status. Although Ranks do grant free levels of Status to a degree.

[schmeelke]

Originally Posted by Ashtagon

Surely the simplest approach would be some kind of logarithm-based formula. Authority over 100 people = Status 1, and each x10 (or x100 for some steps) on that is +1 Status?

Things get weird of course at the lower end, where negative Status is possible.

As a rough guess, I usually use the Size Modifier Table: Look up the number of people commanded as the size (in yards), read the associated modifier, add 2, and divide by 4 to get the Rank to command that number of people. (To reverse, take the rank, multiply by 4 and subtract 2, then look up the associated size (in yards) to get the number or people commanded.

Or use these formulas: Rank = int(3/2*log(people)) and people commanded = 10^(2/3*Rank) (rounded up).

That would make Rank 0 command 1 person (himself), Rank 3 commands 100 people, and Rank 6 commands 10,000 people. Continuing the progression, Rank 9 would command 1 million people, Rank 12 would command 100 million people, Rank 15 would command 10 billion people, Rank 18 would command 1 trillion people, Rank 21 would command 100 trillion people, Rank 24 would command 1e16 people, Rank 27 would command 1e18 people, and Rank 30 would command 1e20 people.

The HERO System puts a "Large Planet; Solar System" at 1E10 (10 billion) people, an "Interstellar Civilization" at 1e11 to 1e15 people (10 to 100,000 planets/star systems, more if they're not as densely populated as a homeworld), and an "Intergalactic Civilization" at 1e16 to 1e17 people (1 million to 10 million+ star systems).

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by schmeelke

Or use these formulas: Rank = int(3/2*log(people)) and people commanded = 10^(2/3*Rank) (rounded up).

I'm internally cringing at these, as logarithms are one thing I could never wrap my head around back in high school (I pretty much bombed everything dealing with Trig, Prob&Stat, and Pre-Calc), and I don't want to have to whip out a calculator every time someone comes up and says "I want to be a politician or ex-politician of a given level", calculating both how many people he has authority over just to figure out a rank, and just hoping I get something right.

I realize Rank has to deal with "number of people under you", regardless of whether it's Admin, Merchant, Police, Military, or Feudal, but having some idea of the positions involved is also crucial. In a government, using these formulas, what Rank would you give to a legislator in a provincial legislature? The Minister of Intelligence for an expansionist (conquering system after system in rapid succession) interstellar nation that at the time the campaign starts is 100 systems but by campaign's end is over 20,000, and still growing?

[Ashtagon]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

I realize Rank has to deal with "number of people under you", regardless of whether it's Admin, Merchant, Police, Military, or Feudal, but having some idea of the positions involved is also crucial. In a government, using these formulas, what Rank would you give to a legislator in a provincial legislature? The Minister of Intelligence for an expansionist (conquering system after system in rapid succession) interstellar nation that at the time the campaign starts is 100 systems but by campaign's end is over 20,000, and still growing?

To determine Rank...

For general "head of region" Admin Rank, determine it by population he has authority over. A simple base-10 log, or using the table in that Social influences pdf,or (ab)using the Distance/Speed table (also a log function btw) can work in place of a base-10 log. Note that the Rank for, say, the Roma Aeterna senator of Italia and the senator for Scandia would probably be based on more than just population; The Scandian senator would be given more respect than mere regional population might warrant. Where such discrepancies arise, base their Rank on the average population across all individuals that are supposed to be meeting as equals in a debating chamber.

For departmental heads under him, subtract one. Note that department heads probably have their own departmental Rank instead of (or in addition to) their Rank (local government). The Chief of Police almost certainly has Rank (police) far in excess of his Rank (local government).

If it's a rapidly expanding (or shrinking) empire, don't change Rank as each new territory is occupied. Instead Rank is adjusted when the internal structure of the government has assimilated the conquest and the people have (even unwillingly) mostly accepted their new overlords.

The actual job titles associated with each Rank are so campaign-specific it's impossible to give anything generic. The Mayor of Watford and the Mayor of London both have the same title, but not the same Rank.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Ashtagon

Surely the simplest approach would be some kind of logarithm-based formula. Authority over 100 people = Status 1, and each x10 (or x100 for some steps) on that is +1 Status?

Things get weird of course at the lower end, where negative Status is possible.

For the steps above Solar System, in Sagatafl's "Extent" scale, I found myself forced to use steps of x100, in order to reach a substantial fraction of 200 billion solar systems for Galaxy.

You can, of course, get around that if you introduce smaller steps, thus a more fine-grained scale, but I already think that mine is plenty fine-grained, with 17 steps in total (ExC0 to ExC16) from Village to Galaxy (my original scale had only 3 or probaby 4 steps above Solar System to Galaxy, while the new one has 6).

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

I'm internally cringing at these, as logarithms are one thing I could never wrap my head around back in high school (I pretty much bombed everything dealing with Trig, Prob&Stat, and Pre-Calc), and I don't want to have to whip out a calculator every time

Just write a lookup-table. Simple. Easy. MS Excel or Libre Office Calc can help you. I can't help you with Excel, because my version is Danish so the functions don't have English names, but I can with Calc.