Shin Kick and Hurting Yourself

[mummy_lord]

Hi, simple question:

Gurps Martial Arts p.124 says:
"The shins and skull give their owner DR 0 and DR 2 but are tougher than this suggests. When you strike the skull with any unarmed attack, Hurting Yourself applies. If you strike the leg using a shin kick (p. 112), roll 1d. On a 1 – or on 1-3, if your foe tried and failed a leg parry – you knock shins. Apply Hurting Yourself unless you have the advantage Striker.

If Hurting Yourself is "For every 5 points of basic damage you roll, you take one point of crushing damage, up to a maximum equal to the DR of the target you hit" then... ok for a Skull (DR 2 = a maximum of 2 basic damage) but for the Shin with DR 0?

Thanks!

L

[zoncxs]

Interesting, I never noticed that.

One way I can read it is also with the rules about minimum damage, which if I recall correctly, is rounded up for crushing damage.

So, even though shins have DR 0, the minimum damage for this rule means you take at least 1 point of crushing damage if you rolled more than 5.

This should be fixed, though. Since it is possible to break your shin, or your opponents, or both at the same time, when you kick. With the RAW, its not possible.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by mummy_lord

If Hurting Yourself is "For every 5 points of basic damage you roll, you take one point of crushing damage, up to a maximum equal to the DR of the target you hit" then... ok for a Skull (DR 2 = a maximum of 2 basic damage) but for the Shin with DR 0?

My guess would be that the authors forgot about the rule that the maximum was limited to the DR of the target. I'd say the limit for the shin would be the target's crippling threshold (1 point over HP/2 for the leg) instead; using the same limit for the Skull (you can't cripple the skull) would probably work as well.

Originally Posted by zoncxs

One way I can read it is also with the rules about minimum damage, which if I recall correctly, is rounded up for crushing damage.

IIRC, crushing damage is the one damage type that doesn't get rounded up.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Varyon

IIRC, crushing damage is the one damage type that doesn't get rounded up.

It's not just rounding. The important thing is subtraction in Crushing attacks that are less than 1 full D6 (as many human level unarmed attacks are).1D minus x can be Zero pts of damage.

For example, an unskilled ST Punch is 1D-3 Thr/Crush and possible results are 0,0,0,1,2.3. Half of the time there will be no damage taken even if the target is DR 0. That same ST 10 man with even the smallest Thrust/Impale weapon would be 1D-2 and damage for a DR0 target would be 1,1,1,2,3 and then x2 for the Impaling trait.

Impaling and all other attack types except for Crushing always do at least 1 pt of damage unles stopped by armor.

[kenclary]

Originally Posted by Varyon

My guess would be that the authors forgot about the rule that the maximum was limited to the DR of the target.

They were aware of them, but were not interested giving all the bones extra DR (as that would have been a fundamental altering of the Basic Set rules).

...

Also, I recall that "someone's shin is broken from landing a shin kick on another shin" is best modelled as the defender using the Jam technique to defend (and rolling well presumably).

[pawsplay]

It feels like it should just be something like thrust -2 crushing for the kicker.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by kenclary

Also, I recall that "someone's shin is broken from landing a shin kick on another shin" is best modelled as the defender using the Jam technique to defend (and rolling well presumably).

Or a critical failure by the attacker. My brother once broke his ankle by kicking me on the shin: didn't hurt me at all.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by kenclary

They were aware of them, but were not interested giving all the bones extra DR (as that would have been a fundamental altering of the Basic Set rules).

In that case, they forgot to include rules on how to treat a shin kick, as the Hurting Yourself rules mean a maximum of 0 damage, which completely invalidates using those rules.

Originally Posted by kenclary

Also, I recall that "someone's shin is broken from landing a shin kick on another shin" is best modelled as the defender using the Jam technique to defend (and rolling well presumably).

Combined with the above, it might be appropriate for, when Hurting Yourself comes into play from hitting the shin, to still set the damage maximum at 0, but state you use the full damage for assessing Shock. So, for a character with HP less than 20, a roll of 4 damage or less has no effect, a roll of 5 results in a -1 Shock penalty, a roll of 6 gives a -2, a roll of 7 gives a -3, and a roll of 8+ gives a -4.

[kenclary]

Originally Posted by Varyon

In that case, they forgot to include rules on how to treat a shin kick, as the Hurting Yourself rules mean a maximum of 0 damage, which completely invalidates using those rules.

Unless, of course, the blocker has extra shin DR as an advantage (a cinematic trait suggested by some actual muay thai people in the playtest).

Combined with the above, it might be appropriate for, when Hurting Yourself comes into play from hitting the shin, to still set the damage maximum at 0, but state you use the full damage for assessing Shock. So, for a character with HP less than 20, a roll of 4 damage or less has no effect, a roll of 5 results in a -1 Shock penalty, a roll of 6 gives a -2, a roll of 7 gives a -3, and a roll of 8+ gives a -4.

The intent was to let the Jam mechanic cover the case of "injure the shin when they kick with the shin."

I'm not gonna try to summarize an 18-year-old email thread from the playtest ("shin kicks" alone got a 46-message thread, and that wasn't the only time it came up). Like any published rule, what was written in MA was the result of lots of design, playtesting, editing, and compromises between those.