VTT Support?

Drone 5 · 02-21-2022, 03:29 PM

Why is it that SJ Games seems to be only supporting Foundry (at least partially) and not the other well established VTTs such as Fantasy Grounds and Roll20?
I know the authors of the GURPS Character Sheet in Roll20 have tried to reached out to SJ Games only be reminded not to violate copyright material, even though that was not what they were asking for. They were asking for SJ Games to work with Roll20 and to establish some sort of support of Roll20.
I also know that the people that worked on the Fantasy Grounds sheet got a similar response, yet those with Foundry seems to have been given the green light.
What gives?

Refplace · 02-21-2022, 04:30 PM

That is only a question staff can answer and it seems like one they would be unlikely to answer publicly. If they give it to anyone it would be to someone who came to them with a specific proposal.
Expecting anything else is really unrealistic and possibly disingenuous.

Possibilities we can speculate on but that is all they are.
Maybe SJG has more faith in the Foundry platform/
Maybe SJG can see how to make it work easier on that platform than others or they prefer the people running the company.
Maybe the pitch by the guys at Foundry was just a better one.
Maybe they will roll out to others eventually and just testing the waters. If so posts like this are likely to be more counter productive than productive as you do what works and gives good press/feedback but shy away from controversial or negative feedback and complaints.

Farmer · 02-21-2022, 04:49 PM

To be clear, there's no official support of Foundry. GGA (GURPS Game Aid) on Foundry (which is just a couple of guys doing it for nothing) has official approval to be non-official. There's no built in copyright info or the like. It costs nothing, and the guys doing it do it for free. It is not linked to the company making Foundry.

I'm not involved so can't comment further, but that's just based on the public statements by the guys doing it and that it resulted after lengthy discussions.

I agree with Refplace that there are better ways to address a desire to have other similar projects supported.

mehrkat · 02-22-2022, 11:26 AM

The foundry support is free. It sounds like what you want is for them to create Roll20/Fantasy Grounds versions of all their content and sell it there.

IE share their profit. I don't see this ever happening though I have no official connection to SJGames.

Its pretty recent that they moved to DriveThru content.

The Foundry GURPS tool is a free fan made product that very recently got the thumbs up to move forward. Foundry is strongly geared towards free content and free system products though they do support patreons to get access to modules.

Roll20/Fantasy Grounds unofficial tools might reach the point that they get the official thumbs up though Roll20 seems to be tooled towards systems being paid content (I assume Fantasy grounds is similar though I've never explored it much)

Nose66 · 03-01-2022, 02:23 PM

I can give my story (as the co-author of the GURPS Game Aid for Foundry VTT).

I started a free "game system" for GURPS on Foundry VTT. I sent in an email to SJG asking for their permission to make a fan-based tool (as per their website), but heard nothing.

Someone at SJG saw that Foundry published a "GURPS Game SYSTEM", and issued a DMCA to Foundry to remove our content.

Which actually was fortunate... because that got SJG's attention. After explaining my situation to SJG, they suggested that I show our "tool" to Sean Punch (aka. Dr. Kromm), maybe in the form of a live demo (like they did with the Fantasy Grounds ruleset). I had started making Youtube videos by that point, and suggested that instead of taking up their valuable time, I could just send them a video of the features. So I did.

Sean and I chatted (over Discord) for a few weeks, and it became clear that the DMCA was issued because it was called a "Game SYSTEM" (Foundry's choice of words), and only SJG is allowed to make a "GURPS SYSTEM".

But we were NOT implementing the "system"... we were implementing a "game aid" (to use SJG's terms) to allow people to play GURPS in Foundry (if you knew how, or had the PDFs). While we did use some copyrighted material, we were not trying to bypass SJG (and in fact, if you click on a PDF link, and do not have the PDF, it will take you directly to the Warehouse23 page where you can purchase it).

Hence why we constantly refer to the tool as the "GURPS Game Aid for Foundry" or GGA.

I got Sean's recommendation almost right away, but he was just the "technical advisor", and the actual decision would be made back at SJG.

Fast forward 5 months... yes, 5 months... after trying not to bug Sean every few weeks (and I failed... sorry Sean), Foundry was sent an email lifting the DMCA, and I was given permission to list our "game aid" as: UNOFFICIAL

Which I did... and we have been off to the races since then.

As for Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds... they are more of a locked down environment, with subscription fees, etc. Don't get me wrong... without their "opening the crack in the door", I don't know if SJG would have approved of our Game Aid. But since SJG already allowed the Fantasy Grounds Rule set... I think they "softened" a bit on what it means to be a "game aid".

Foundry is more open. After the $50 purchase, you don't need to purchase anything else. People make money by publishing licensed content for the various free game systems... and in one case (WarHammer, I believe), there is a free "game system", and then a licensed version that has more features.

As for development... I can say personally that Foundry is much easier. And being open source, there are a LOT of developers creating free content for this platform.

There are over 150 different game systems and over 1000 free modules which enhance the capabilities of Foundry. If you haven't seen any videos on what Foundry can do, take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zykb7wxh-RQ

But the bottom line is this... could SJG make money implementing GURPS in any of the VTTs?

IMHO probably not. GURPS is just too open. As we say in our Users Guide "Your GURPS, Your Way". We know from experience that we could not implement the one-perfect "game system" for GURPS, because every GM's game is different.

However, SJG could make money selling content. They allowed Douglas Cole (Gaming Ballistic) to publish his Bestiary (https://gamingballistic.com/category...-enemies-book/), and if you get the electronic version, you will get a Foundry VTT license key to access the Bestiary information in our game aid. So that "opened the door" just a bit...

And I am happy with that, for now.

Mark Skarr · 03-01-2022, 05:17 PM

My VTT of choice, Tabletop Simulator, doesn't really need any integration as it's a virtual tabletop, and not a web-based map display and automation app.

And, really, that's all I want out of it. It's a physics-based table, around which we can all "sit" and move minis on a map. The pog-characters is one of the many reasons I don't use any of the other VTTs, they're just not what I'm looking for. We can sit around and roll virtual dice (have a couple of interesting 3d dice towers) for our game. And actual 3d, virtual minis, which are so much better than the pogs. Hero Forge spoils me.

And, as Nose66 points out, there really isn't going to be much money in RPG VTTs for GURPS. Though, SJGames could officially release a Munchkin DLC on Tabletop Simulator (which I really think they should), but, that's not my call.

02-21-2022, 03:29 PM	#1
Drone 5 Join Date: Nov 2017	VTT Support? Why is it that SJ Games seems to be only supporting Foundry (at least partially) and not the other well established VTTs such as Fantasy Grounds and Roll20? I know the authors of the GURPS Character Sheet in Roll20 have tried to reached out to SJ Games only be reminded not to violate copyright material, even though that was not what they were asking for. They were asking for SJ Games to work with Roll20 and to establish some sort of support of Roll20. I also know that the people that worked on the Fantasy Grounds sheet got a similar response, yet those with Foundry seems to have been given the green light. What gives? __________________ The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules. - Gary Gygax

02-21-2022, 04:30 PM	#2
Refplace Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Yukon, OK	Re: VTT Support? That is only a question staff can answer and it seems like one they would be unlikely to answer publicly. If they give it to anyone it would be to someone who came to them with a specific proposal. Expecting anything else is really unrealistic and possibly disingenuous. Possibilities we can speculate on but that is all they are. Maybe SJG has more faith in the Foundry platform/ Maybe SJG can see how to make it work easier on that platform than others or they prefer the people running the company. Maybe the pitch by the guys at Foundry was just a better one. Maybe they will roll out to others eventually and just testing the waters. If so posts like this are likely to be more counter productive than productive as you do what works and gives good press/feedback but shy away from controversial or negative feedback and complaints. __________________ My GURPS publications GURPS Powers: Totem and Nature Spirits; GURPS Template Toolkit 4: Spirits; Pyramid articles. Buying them lets us know you want more! My GURPS fan contribution and blog: REFPLace GURPS Landing Page My List of GURPS You Tube videos (plus a few other useful items) My GURPS Wiki entries

02-21-2022, 04:49 PM	#3
Farmer Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Sydney, Australia	Re: VTT Support? To be clear, there's no official support of Foundry. GGA (GURPS Game Aid) on Foundry (which is just a couple of guys doing it for nothing) has official approval to be non-official. There's no built in copyright info or the like. It costs nothing, and the guys doing it do it for free. It is not linked to the company making Foundry. I'm not involved so can't comment further, but that's just based on the public statements by the guys doing it and that it resulted after lengthy discussions. I agree with Refplace that there are better ways to address a desire to have other similar projects supported. __________________ Farmer Mortal Wombat "But if the while I think on thee, dear friend All losses are restored and sorrows end."

02-22-2022, 11:26 AM	#4
mehrkat Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Austin Texas	Re: VTT Support? The foundry support is free. It sounds like what you want is for them to create Roll20/Fantasy Grounds versions of all their content and sell it there. IE share their profit. I don't see this ever happening though I have no official connection to SJGames. Its pretty recent that they moved to DriveThru content. The Foundry GURPS tool is a free fan made product that very recently got the thumbs up to move forward. Foundry is strongly geared towards free content and free system products though they do support patreons to get access to modules. Roll20/Fantasy Grounds unofficial tools might reach the point that they get the official thumbs up though Roll20 seems to be tooled towards systems being paid content (I assume Fantasy grounds is similar though I've never explored it much) __________________ He stared out in the distance to see the awesome might of the Meerkat war party.

03-01-2022, 02:23 PM	#5
Nose66 Join Date: May 2018 Location: Atlanta, GA	Re: VTT Support? I can give my story (as the co-author of the GURPS Game Aid for Foundry VTT). I started a free "game system" for GURPS on Foundry VTT. I sent in an email to SJG asking for their permission to make a fan-based tool (as per their website), but heard nothing. Someone at SJG saw that Foundry published a "GURPS Game SYSTEM", and issued a DMCA to Foundry to remove our content. Which actually was fortunate... because that got SJG's attention. After explaining my situation to SJG, they suggested that I show our "tool" to Sean Punch (aka. Dr. Kromm), maybe in the form of a live demo (like they did with the Fantasy Grounds ruleset). I had started making Youtube videos by that point, and suggested that instead of taking up their valuable time, I could just send them a video of the features. So I did. Sean and I chatted (over Discord) for a few weeks, and it became clear that the DMCA was issued because it was called a "Game SYSTEM" (Foundry's choice of words), and only SJG is allowed to make a "GURPS SYSTEM". But we were NOT implementing the "system"... we were implementing a "game aid" (to use SJG's terms) to allow people to play GURPS in Foundry (if you knew how, or had the PDFs). While we did use some copyrighted material, we were not trying to bypass SJG (and in fact, if you click on a PDF link, and do not have the PDF, it will take you directly to the Warehouse23 page where you can purchase it). Hence why we constantly refer to the tool as the "GURPS Game Aid for Foundry" or GGA. I got Sean's recommendation almost right away, but he was just the "technical advisor", and the actual decision would be made back at SJG. Fast forward 5 months... yes, 5 months... after trying not to bug Sean every few weeks (and I failed... sorry Sean), Foundry was sent an email lifting the DMCA, and I was given permission to list our "game aid" as: UNOFFICIAL Which I did... and we have been off to the races since then. As for Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds... they are more of a locked down environment, with subscription fees, etc. Don't get me wrong... without their "opening the crack in the door", I don't know if SJG would have approved of our Game Aid. But since SJG already allowed the Fantasy Grounds Rule set... I think they "softened" a bit on what it means to be a "game aid". Foundry is more open. After the $50 purchase, you don't need to purchase anything else. People make money by publishing licensed content for the various free game systems... and in one case (WarHammer, I believe), there is a free "game system", and then a licensed version that has more features. As for development... I can say personally that Foundry is much easier. And being open source, there are a LOT of developers creating free content for this platform. There are over 150 different game systems and over 1000 free modules which enhance the capabilities of Foundry. If you haven't seen any videos on what Foundry can do, take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zykb7wxh-RQ But the bottom line is this... could SJG make money implementing GURPS in any of the VTTs? IMHO probably not. GURPS is just too open. As we say in our Users Guide "Your GURPS, Your Way". We know from experience that we could not implement the one-perfect "game system" for GURPS, because every GM's game is different. However, SJG could make money selling content. They allowed Douglas Cole (Gaming Ballistic) to publish his Bestiary (https://gamingballistic.com/category...-enemies-book/), and if you get the electronic version, you will get a Foundry VTT license key to access the Bestiary information in our game aid. So that "opened the door" just a bit... And I am happy with that, for now. __________________ Co-author: GURPS 4e Game Aid for Foundry VTT GURPS Game Aid videos Intro to/Learning GURPS videos

03-01-2022, 05:17 PM	#6
Mark Skarr Forum Pervert (If you have to ask . . .) Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Somewhere high up.	Re: VTT Support? My VTT of choice, Tabletop Simulator, doesn't really need any integration as it's a virtual tabletop, and not a web-based map display and automation app. And, really, that's all I want out of it. It's a physics-based table, around which we can all "sit" and move minis on a map. The pog-characters is one of the many reasons I don't use any of the other VTTs, they're just not what I'm looking for. We can sit around and roll virtual dice (have a couple of interesting 3d dice towers) for our game. And actual 3d, virtual minis, which are so much better than the pogs. Hero Forge spoils me. And, as Nose66 points out, there really isn't going to be much money in RPG VTTs for GURPS. Though, SJGames could officially release a Munchkin DLC on Tabletop Simulator (which I really think they should), but, that's not my call.