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Old 06-08-2021, 04:44 PM   #11
MrFix
 
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Default Re: Further Discussion on Stun Grenades

Quote:
Originally Posted by EskrimadorNC View Post
I don't recall the specific type of banger we trained with, but it was back in the early to mid 90s if that helps any.

If your experience is more recent, that could explain the difference in potency.

BTW, your blog is high-speed. Keep it up.



I get it. Maybe it's just my disconnect from RL experience. GURPS lets you do a lot in a 1 second turn, and I have always felt that my Players doing room clearing had time to spare when banging a room of badguys, even after pushing in, taking an AIM maneuver, and putting controlled pairs into vitals. IRL that crap takes time (unless you are CAG/ACE), and I never felt like there was enough time to dilly-dally when room clearing.

Also, in the games I've run, my PCs only really deployed bangers when they had time, and never really while under fire or out in the open. Giving the badguys 3 - 4 seconds of dumping fire on you while you prep a banger never seemed to be a smart play, so they didn't do it.
Thank you.

It's a quirk of GURPS, players are able to make decisions outside of time, and when actions do unfold, they really feel more like slow motion. Even with your IRL experience of 6 seconds, they can enter (1), aim (2), controlled vitals pair (3), drop gun on sling (free), Draw cigarette (4), Draw Lighter (5), Flick lighter open as a free action and light the cigarette up (6). Mission accomplished before the baddies were even half-way to sane.

Best way to combat that is to use counter-assault tactics, rather than rely on beefiness of your bad guys. Bottom line, bad guys value their eyes and thus wear ballistic sunglasses (+5 to resist) and value their ears and thus wear Tactical Headsets (+5 to resist). Or they start listening in for the stack approaching and force them to roll stealth if they don't want to be counter-assaulted. Then it stops being a routine of stack, toss, shoot unmoving lads, a quick way for things to go boring.
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Old 06-08-2021, 04:47 PM   #12
johndallman
 
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Default Re: Further Discussion on Stun Grenades

Quote:
Originally Posted by EskrimadorNC View Post
Also, in the games I've run, my PCs only really deployed bangers when they had time, and never really while under fire or out in the open. Giving the badguys 3 - 4 seconds of dumping fire on you while you prep a banger never seemed to be a smart play, so they didn't do it.
I have no real-world experience, but in one campaign where we used them a fair bit, they were generally used to initiate combat when the opponents weren't aware of us, or not fully so. Under those circumstances, they give a huge advantage, as they should.
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Old 06-08-2021, 08:43 PM   #13
Celjabba
 
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Default Re: Further Discussion on Stun Grenades

Quote:
Originally Posted by EskrimadorNC View Post
I don't recall the specific type of banger we trained with, but it was back in the early to mid 90s if that helps any.

If your experience is more recent, that could explain the difference in potency.

BTW, your blog is high-speed. Keep it up.
If you trained with them, that would likely explain the shorter recovery time.

A flashbang have 3 effect :
  • Vision trouble, which dissipate in a shorter time than the other effects, and much faster if you averted your eyes - which you would with training.
  • Hearing trouble, which can last minutes to hours, but impair action less.
    And if you trained with flashbang, you likely have permanent ear damage/ hearing loss, which further mitigate the effect.
  • Dizziness, which is the primary "stunning" factor, and also have a wide range of recovery time, but which can be (partially at least) overcome with training.

Location would also count a lot, I think.
There should be a huge difference between a flashbang detonating a few meter above a crowd in the outside, or a more powerful one point blank inside a room.

Last edited by Celjabba; 06-08-2021 at 08:55 PM.
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Old 06-08-2021, 10:19 PM   #14
MrFix
 
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Default Re: Further Discussion on Stun Grenades

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
If you trained with them, that would likely explain the shorter recovery time.

A flashbang have 3 effect :
  • Vision trouble, which dissipate in a shorter time than the other effects, and much faster if you averted your eyes - which you would with training.
  • Hearing trouble, which can last minutes to hours, but impair action less.
    And if you trained with flashbang, you likely have permanent ear damage/ hearing loss, which further mitigate the effect.
  • Dizziness, which is the primary "stunning" factor, and also have a wide range of recovery time, but which can be (partially at least) overcome with training.

Location would also count a lot, I think.
There should be a huge difference between a flashbang detonating a few meter above a crowd in the outside, or a more powerful one point blank inside a room.
I believe there are rules for afflictions giving a bonus to resist them based on how far from he center of the blast you are. But I am not sure if that applies to flashbangs.
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Old 06-10-2021, 01:38 PM   #15
weby
 
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Default Re: Further Discussion on Stun Grenades

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Originally Posted by EskrimadorNC View Post

HT -5 is pretty steep, especially since it's a static roll you have to make every turn (until you succeed).

For a HT10 NPC, that's what...a 5% chance to succeed? In my personal RL experience, normal folks usually recover from the effects of Flashbangs sometime around the 6 second mark, give or take.

When PCs have used them in action games, rarely do the NPCs ever pass the HT -5 roll, and the PCs end up being able to act with impunity for way longer than they should.

Has anyone out there had the same experience? Do any of you GMs have special house rules for stun grenades? Do your players ever even employ them?
Well, it depends on the "enemy".

In action if you want combat challenge to PCs you should likely use enemies with most of the combat abilities of the combat templates, but not the "special things" like luck. The templates have minimum HT of 11 and option to buy more HT and fit, so quite many of them have effective HT 12+

Also a basic soldier by Gurps Rules(soldier template in template toolkit 1) has a base HT 11 and 20 points to use on a list that includes both fit ant +1 or 2 HT, so quite many of them will have effective HT of 12 or higher.

If effective HT is 12, you have a 16% chance/round to recover. That gives a 65% probability to have recovered by 6th roll and those who have 11 will have more than half..

Also it should be noted that in training we at least always used hearing protection. The hearing protection gives +5 according to HT, so at that point you are rolling against your HT...

Any realistic modern enemies who are prepared for possible gunfire will have hearing protection and a considerable number of the non-realistic ones wear sunglasses even in dark.. :)
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