Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-23-2016, 10:40 AM   #11
PK
 
PK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dobbstown Sane Asylum
Default Re: Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
In DF Archers can fire every turn.
Well, specifically, archers with Heroic Archer can fire every turn, which is why this is a good investment for them. I wouldn't just change the rules to let archers fire every turn for no point cost or penalty! That would overvalue bows compared to other weapons.

That said, I use the Instant Shot technique instead of the more complex rules for Heroic Archer, and I'll let even non-cinematic archers use it and buy it off, assuming they meet the harsh prerequisites. After all, the 9 points it costs to max out is about half what Heroic Archer costs, and gives about half of that advantage's benefits.

Quote:
And Wizards are every other turn so that's not too bad...
Right, and I wouldn't change this. A properly spec'ed wizard can toss a 3d missile (or 3d-3 impaling missile) every other turn, which is far more damaging than anything a typical archer can do! We've played with allowing Compartmentalized Mind, but in the end most of us (as GMs) restrict it to NPCs only, since it's a ridiculously easy way to build "boss monster" spellcasters.
__________________
Reverend Pee Kitty of the Order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Twitter) (LJ)

MyGURPS: My house rules and GURPS resources.

#SJGamesLive: I answered questions about GURPS After the End and more!
{Watch Video} - {Read Transcript}
PK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2016, 11:11 AM   #12
ericbsmith
 
ericbsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Binghamton, NY, USA. Near the river Styx in the 5th Circle.
Default Re: Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK View Post
Right, and I wouldn't change this. A properly spec'ed wizard can toss a 3d missile (or 3d-3 impaling missile) every other turn, which is far more damaging than anything a typical archer can do! We've played with allowing Compartmentalized Mind, but in the end most of us (as GMs) restrict it to NPCs only, since it's a ridiculously easy way to build "boss monster" spellcasters.
Having read this thread an interesting idea that popped into my head is to allow new variant Missile spells which top out at 1d or maybe 2d, energy cost cannot be reduced (or base energy cost is very high, so reductions still cost at least 1FP), and casting time is instant (a specific exemption to the minimum casting time rule).

Kromm also used to have some variant missile spells on his website that allowed mages to fire multiple projectiles in a single casting. So instead firing 1 fireball in a one second casting you could fire up to 12d divided between multiple missiles (so 2x6d, or 3x4d, etc). I'm not sure I'd allow that one, but it's an idea.


As for Archers, as others have said with Heroic Archer, Fast-Draw, and a few archery perks an Archer can be very deadly (throw Strongbow into the mix, in addition to what's already been mentioned). If you allow Dual Weapon Attack (Bow) they can even get off two arrows per turn on the same or adjacent targets. That's plenty deadly enough.
__________________
Eric B. Smith GURPS Data File Coordinator
GURPSLand
I shall pull the pin from this healing grenade and...
Kaboom-baya.

Last edited by ericbsmith; 06-23-2016 at 11:16 AM.
ericbsmith is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2016, 11:40 AM   #13
Mailanka
 
Mailanka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
Default Re: Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericbsmith View Post
Having read this thread an interesting idea that popped into my head is to allow new variant Missile spells which top out at 1d or maybe 2d, energy cost cannot be reduced (or base energy cost is very high, so reductions still cost at least 1FP), and casting time is instant (a specific exemption to the minimum casting time rule).
There's also a power that lets you blast people every turn as well. I believe it's in Power-Ups.

But in any case, I think someone who demands that a wizard get to blast stuff every turn is... so missing the point of a wizard, in my opinion. I played a wizard, and I certainly do remember spending a few turns building up an ice dagger only to miss, while in the same amount of time, the swashbuckler was carving through a dozen baddies. But I also remember taking time to summon a major demon who powered through the dungeon with, flash-freezing the floor so utterly change the circumstances of battle, and outwitting a satyr and his mind control with my own mind magic.

A wizard is not an artillery platform, he's a game-changer. He's that in D&D too, by the way: In 4e, he was classed a "controller," not a "striker," and that seems right to me. A wizard isn't blasting stuff over and over with fireballs, he's casting sleep spells, or summons, or some other crazy, vast trick that rewrites the battlefield in favor of his allies. That's even more true in DF, in my experience.
__________________
My Blog: Mailanka's Musing. Currently Playing: Psi-Wars, a step-by-step exploration of building your own Space Opera setting, inspired by Star Wars.
Mailanka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2016, 12:03 PM   #14
ericbsmith
 
ericbsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Binghamton, NY, USA. Near the river Styx in the 5th Circle.
Default Re: Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
But in any case, I think someone who demands that a wizard get to blast stuff every turn is... so missing the point of a wizard, in my opinion.
Well, yes and no. I do agree that a Mage can be so much more useful and versatile, if he's built and played that way. But some people just want an artillery cannon mage, and the only thing wrong with that is that GURPS doesn't really allow you to power-up in that direction very well the same way that other "classes" can.
__________________
Eric B. Smith GURPS Data File Coordinator
GURPSLand
I shall pull the pin from this healing grenade and...
Kaboom-baya.
ericbsmith is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2016, 12:36 PM   #15
Mailanka
 
Mailanka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
Default Re: Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericbsmith View Post
Well, yes and no. I do agree that a Mage can be so much more useful and versatile, if he's built and played that way. But some people just want an artillery cannon mage, and the only thing wrong with that is that GURPS doesn't really allow you to power-up in that direction very well the same way that other "classes" can.
Yeah, but some people really like the idea of really high HP fighters who can taunt/mark their opponents, or thieves with back-stab damage, and so on. And to some extent, you can cater to that, but at some point, you have to ask "Wouldn't you rather be playing D&D?" GURPS has certain assumptions, and I personally think that if you're playing GURPS, you should try to embrace those assumptions where possible, you know? Let GURPS be GURPS.

But in any case, maybe I'm wrong. It seems that the problem isn't that GURPS forces mages to be slow and spend fatigue, but that the standard magic system does. GURPS actually has quite a few other magic systems, like Sorcery, RPM, and an entire catalog of options in Thaumatology. If you wanted to have an entirely different sort of wizard, one that could be much faster on the draw, it would seem to me that one of those would be the first place I looked (Sorcery, especially).

The default magic system is built around mages taking time. It balances mage utility on cost and casting time. To have mages who throw fireballs as quickly as warriors attack with their sword means you need to rebalance the whole system, and you're really playing with something closer to powers than the classic GURPS-concept of a spell. Sorcery fits that bill pretty nicely, as would generic "Spells as powers," or perhaps even Psi (which is fully supported in GURPS, albeit with themes a player who wants a wizard might find off-putting).
__________________
My Blog: Mailanka's Musing. Currently Playing: Psi-Wars, a step-by-step exploration of building your own Space Opera setting, inspired by Star Wars.
Mailanka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2016, 12:43 PM   #16
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericbsmith View Post
Well, yes and no. I do agree that a Mage can be so much more useful and versatile, if he's built and played that way. But some people just want an artillery cannon mage, and the only thing wrong with that is that GURPS doesn't really allow you to power-up in that direction very well the same way that other "classes" can.
Of course, if what you want is an artillery/blaster mage, DF can support that - build a Sorcerer (Pyramid #3/82) instead of a Wizard. Have most of your Known Spells be of the artillery/blaster type, and improvise any support magic you end up needing (although you'll likely only be able to improvise weak support magic).
Varyon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2016, 12:44 PM   #17
Kalzazz
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Default Re: Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

RPM works beautifully for the 'chuck spells every round' mage

Sorcery does also, but does strongly encourage a more Johnny One Spell approach to combat nuking

RPM gives a VERY old DnD feel, with charms replacing spell slots, but blaze away as your charms hold out
Kalzazz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2016, 12:50 PM   #18
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

My experience with blast every round mages is that they wind up being basically supers characters, and are probably best built using Powers. That's not inherently bad, plenty of magicians in comics and movies work that way, but it does result in a different type of feel.

Balancing ranged vs melee is a really tricky problem, though; if you want both melee and ranged fighters in the same system, you need to pretty carefully tune the numbers so the melee fighter is durable enough to reach melee range (and has an advantage once in melee range), but is not so powerful as to make ranged weapons useless.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2016, 02:09 PM   #19
mhd
 
mhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Land of the Beer, Home of the Dirndls
Default Re: Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

I'm pretty adamant about Sorcerers not getting to many FPs (or even Energy Reserve) and didn't allow Alternative Rituals. But even then I could see a problem with someone who's really focusing on deadly long range attacks (1FP per 3d+ fireball can last a long time).
mhd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2016, 04:07 PM   #20
evileeyore
Banned
 
evileeyore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
Default Re: Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
The real question for the (apparently) proposed houserule is the effect it has on all the casual archers.
What proposed houserule?


Quote:
Once ranged weapon expertise becomes easy and popular, what do you do about the melee niches and their lessened effectiveness and impact in game? Buff them, like the Heroic Archer?
No, because ranged fighters will always do less damage and (generally) wear less armor. They are not going to ever outperform a dedicated melee spec.

Quote:
Bows are easy to master and have an even higher rate of fire...
Heroic Archery is as 'easy' to master as Weapon Master or Trained By Master is. So no real change to the world...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
Yeah, but some people really like the idea of really high HP fighters who can taunt/mark their opponents, or thieves with back-stab damage, and so on. And to some extent, you can cater to that, but at some point, you have to ask "Wouldn't you rather be playing D&D?"
And my answer to that will always be "NO!".
evileeyore is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
action, archer, dungeon fantasy, mage, turn

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.