IW: Centrum and Homeline National Governments?

[Astromancer]

If Infinity found itself embarassed or humilated, then it might have to let national governments have more say. Centrum doesn't get Homeline governments (in cannon it thinks Homeline is a dangerous anarchy). so Centrum might underestimate Homeline governments.

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Infinity's ability to keep not just the US government, but all Homeline governments, from interfering with them very much, is one of the intrinsic mysteries of the setting. See p525 of the Basic Set. A campaign that seriously engages with the setting needs to have an answer to this mystery: PM me if you want to know the one Infinity uses in mine.

Well, this 'immunity' would have to vary from campaign to campaign since it makes a lot of underlying assumptions about how the game world works. Are governments honest, dishonest, a mix? Also, its easier on the authors to give this to GMs.

At a guess, and averaging out the reactions of various world governments to somewhat dishonest but mostly interested in keep themselves safe, I'd say Infinity has to buy them off. And that doesn't just include funding the campaigns of Senators/Presidents/etc., and dropping gold bullion on into the laps of petty dictators. It also includes refraining from flooding markets with cheap raw materials.

Say OPEC nations are making noises like they want a say in what Infinity is doing with Caliph. Infinity says fine - we'll give you that AND give the world the Caliph historical justifications for their religious beliefs (which are NOT quite Homeline compatible). Oh, and also we've found oil in any number of empty worlds we can start importing any day. OPEC considers these facts, and decides they'll hold a vote on it... someday in the future.

That of course is just a pulled from the air example - I don't know the canon on oil and OPEC etc., in Homeline. But that type of arraingment is probably common with Infinity and the various governments that can exert any influence at all.

[arcanus]

Originally Posted by Drifter

It also includes refraining from flooding markets with cheap raw materials.

This is the angle I play, Infinity could easily destroy Homelines global economy and society, very quickly. Introducing vast amounts of raw materials could devalue most major currencies and wreck import/exports.

Cultural contamination would also be a danger, in our campaign UNIC passed The Homeline accords regulating quantities of materials, technologies and cultural imports to prevent Superinflation and protect native cultures.

I think this also puts Infinity into the realms of being a true Neuromancer-esque Megacorporation, with extra-territorial status. Technically they could accomplish this by setting themselves up as a Sovereign territory (They own several Worlds), which would put them on a different/equal standing with Homeline governments.

[David Johnston2]

I conceived of Infinity as not actually being a private corporation but as a intergovernmental organization with commercial interests.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by arcanus

This is the angle I play, Infinity could easily destroy Homelines global economy and society, very quickly. Introducing vast amounts of raw materials could devalue most major currencies and wreck import/exports.

Interesting....

I was under the impression that Infinity had indeed already played around with homeline's economy to the point that they hold it ransom. They're quite good at silently importing and exporting things without governments figuring out what was going on, why shouldn't they have started with that policy on homeline?

Yes, right now the Homeline governments have conveyor capability, but over 80% of all reachable worlds require a projector, which they don't have. Infinity also goes to lengths to make sure that if it suffers a government takeover, It will have superior forces off homeline.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Interesting....

I was under the impression that Infinity had indeed already played around with homeline's economy to the point that they hold it ransom. They're quite good at silently importing and exporting things without governments figuring out what was going on, why shouldn't they have started with that policy on homeline?

Yes, right now the Homeline governments have conveyor capability, but over 80% of all reachable worlds require a projector, which they don't have. Infinity also goes to lengths to make sure that if it suffers a government takeover, It will have superior forces off homeline.

Still Infinity is a corperation, not a nation. Many of Infinity's employes would be more loyal to their nation, religion, tribe, cultural ideology, ect., than to Infinity. Even many of the out time recruits would be more loyal to something other than Infinity. A wizard from an America destroyed by a demonic invasion might still be an American patriot. Similarly a mutant Psion from a post atomic-holocust Brazil might still see herself as a loyal daughter of the Catholic Church (and she might be ready to fight for its social teachings about the poor). The very people Infinity would need to be on its side against any temptations by Centrum or Reich-5, are the exact sort of people who'd put ideals ahead of a corperation.

For Infinity to hold the loyalty of these people, Infinity needs an ideal that can inspire deep and selfless loyalty. Ideals like Freedom, Justice, and Fairness, would be absolutely necessary for Infinity to thrive. And yes they would bind Infinity as well.

Without ideals Infinity is dead in the water. With ideals Infinity might find that their people are loyal to the ideals and not to them. Always a risk. But if you have a job requiering heros, you need heroic ideals.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Still Infinity is a corperation, not a nation. Many of Infinity's employes would be more loyal to their nation, religion, tribe, cultural ideology, ect., than to Infinity. Even many of the out time recruits would be more loyal to something other than Infinity. A wizard from an America destroyed by a demonic invasion might still be an American patriot. Similarly a mutant Psion from a post atomic-holocust Brazil might still see herself as a loyal daughter of the Catholic Church (and she might be ready to fight for its social teachings about the poor). The very people Infinity would need to be on its side against any temptations by Centrum or Reich-5, are the exact sort of people who'd put ideals ahead of a corperation.

For Infinity to hold the loyalty of these people, Infinity needs an ideal that can inspire deep and selfless loyalty. Ideals like Freedom, Justice, and Fairness, would be absolutely necessary for Infinity to thrive. And yes they would bind Infinity as well.

Without ideals Infinity is dead in the water. With ideals Infinity might find that their people are loyal to the ideals and not to them. Always a risk. But if you have a job requiering heros, you need heroic ideals.

Very true.

Which is probably the motivation behind a number of moves:

The Patrol and the company are mostly run separately, and the Patrol technically answers to the U.N. This probably has the goal of separating the idealists with power from the company's workings, and channeling idealists.

Infinity seems to have a HIGH level of Homeline-Bigotry. It seems that even people from Beta are treated much as second-class citizens. This never made sense to me ... Unless its a result of or part of an effort to channel nationalism on Homeline into a loyalty to the timeline rather than the country in all timelines.

As for Infiltration by enemy agents: Its a problem. Its implied that infinity has collaborators with centrum, while lacking any of its own. Both Merlin and Homeline have infiltrated each other: Homeline is unaware of the fact. Reich-5 got its tech from homeline in the first place. The thing that enable Homeline to stand up to these powers is size and efficiency: The reich and merlin have severe logistics problems compared to infinity, and Centrum is implied to have a substantially smaller population than homeline. In addition, Centrum is typically on the offense against homeline, rather than the defense.

[patchwork]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Very true.

Infinity seems to have a HIGH level of Homeline-Bigotry. It seems that even people from Beta are treated much as second-class citizens. This never made sense to me ... Unless its a result of or part of an effort to channel nationalism on Homeline into a loyalty to the timeline rather than the country in all timelines.

I think it's unavoidable, and unlikely to be deliberate; for the past 30 years, the basis of Homeline's global economy has been might-as-well-be-free natural resources and free pollution offsets by extracting things from other timelines. They colonize for social rather than economic reasons. It would be impossible to maintain such a system without instilling the idea inadvertently that other timelines, even inhabited ones, exist for Homeline's benefit; individual collectors snag stuff from outtime all the time, but so near as we can tell, Homeline as a whole hasn't really embraced any outtime ideas, religions or even trends.

It's also a generational problem, hinted at obliquely in the books. There is a vast gulf between Homeliners under 30, who have always lived in such an economic system and probably have no outtime doppelgangers, and those who grew up before parachronics, who may have been able to see how THEIR lives turned out under different circumstances.

Heck, it goes a long way towards explaining Centrum's visceral reaction to Secundus. Centrum tends to take the long view. Secundus today is mildly annoying; but in 20 years, when those selfish and chauvinist kids are making management decisions, Secundus is going to be a horror show.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by ericthered

V
Infinity seems to have a HIGH level of Homeline-Bigotry. It seems that even people from Beta are treated much as second-class citizens..

I don't agree. Seems to me anyone who finds out the Secret and is willing to be recruited is treated as if they were born on Homeline.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Still Infinity is a corperation, not a nation. Many of Infinity's employes would be more loyal to their nation, religion, tribe, cultural ideology, ect., than to Infinity. Even many of the out time recruits would be more loyal to something other than Infinity. A wizard from an America destroyed by a demonic invasion might still be an American patriot. Similarly a mutant Psion from a post atomic-holocust Brazil might still see herself as a loyal daughter of the Catholic Church (and she might be ready to fight for its social teachings about the poor). The very people Infinity would need to be on its side against any temptations by Centrum or Reich-5, are the exact sort of people who'd put ideals ahead of a corperation.

For Infinity to hold the loyalty of these people, Infinity needs an ideal that can inspire deep and selfless loyalty. Ideals like Freedom, Justice, and Fairness, would be absolutely necessary for Infinity to thrive. And yes they would bind Infinity as well.

Without ideals Infinity is dead in the water. With ideals Infinity might find that their people are loyal to the ideals and not to them. Always a risk. But if you have a job requiering heros, you need heroic ideals.

As I interpret the setting, Infinity is a basically a commerical-imperialist joint venture. It's about as morally high-tone as the British East India Company. That certainly leaves room for individual idealistic agents and some PR flim flam, but the whole thing is really a monopoly set up to make $$$ by controlling and exploiting crosstime commerce and information flow.

The Centrum, on the other hand, is organized with strong, clearly articulated ideological principles. Centrum champions 'freedom, justice, and equality.' Those ideals can only be properly realized on a given timeline when society there has evolved to be like Centrum, of course.


YMMV