[Houserule] Brawling Default at DX-4

[vierasmarius]

Something that has long bugged me is the way unarmed attacks can be made untrained at full DX. It means that there is very little difference between someone with no skill at all, and someone who's spent as much as 200 hours in self-defense classes (I know the training time rules shouldn't be used in reverse like that, but work with me a sec, okay?) This is especially apparent when you have two completely unskilled combatants brawling, and then one picks up a stick and suddenly incurs a relative -5 skill penalty.

The easy solution to this seems to be to make Brawling and Wrestling (the "basic" unarmed fighting skills) default to DX-4 and DX-5, respectively. This means that either All-Out or Telegraphic become almost mandatory for unskilled brawlers, which to me seems pretty realistic. It also means that unarmed combat skills are a candidate for the Dabbler perk, which again seems appropriate, considering the number of people who's only fighting experience is childhood roughhousing and a self-defense class or two.

Anybody have thoughts on this idea? Love it, hate it, don't care?

[Verjigorm]

Martial Arts addresses this, with an optional rule that heavily restricts the ability to choose your manuevers for those with no combat skills.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Martial Arts addresses this, with an optional rule that heavily restricts the ability to choose your manuevers for those with no combat skills.

I'm aware of the MA optional rules, but they don't do anything to address the underlying imbalance between, for instance, unskilled brawling attacks and unskilled weapon attacks. I'd prefer to have unskilled fighters choose All-Out attacks from necessity, rather than mandate.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I'm aware of the MA optional rules, but they don't do anything to address the underlying imbalance between, for instance, unskilled brawling attacks and unskilled weapon attacks. I'd prefer to have unskilled fighters choose All-Out attacks from necessity, rather than mandate.

So you going to force everyone that rough housed as a kid to buy a level of brawling? that what the default represents after all.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

So you going to force everyone that rough housed as a kid to buy a level of brawling? that what the default represents after all.

I could certainly see everyone who rough housed as a kid taking a Dabbler perk that included Brawling.

Personally I'm in favor of a default for Brawling rather than full Dex. But I'd put it at -3 (like a regular Easy skill) rather than -4 since some level of fighting back is instinctive.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by aesir23

I could certainly see everyone who rough housed as a kid taking a Dabbler perk that included Brawling.

Personally I'm in favor of a default for Brawling rather than full Dex. But I'd put it at -3 (like a regular Easy skill) rather than -4 since some level of fighting back is instinctive.

Exet childhood ruff housing is the humans human norm, and is deftly someting that should be part of the [0] human template... kinda going against the point.

I rather have like Illiterate [-3]; Never Ruff-housed[-1]

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

So you going to force everyone that rough housed as a kid to buy a level of brawling? that what the default represents after all.

If someone just rough housed as a kid, they would have default Brawling, ie DX-4. Maybe higher, ie Dabbler perk for DX-3 or DX-2. Someone with actual training, or more practical experience, has a full point, for Brawling at DX. My problem with the RAW is that there's no real difference between basic training (1 cp, Brawling at DX) and default (0cp, unarmed strikes at DX).

The main difference that this would mean for PCs is that, if they expect or intend to fight unarmed, they can't get away with just default use.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Personally I'm in favor of a default for Brawling rather than full Dex. But I'd put it at -3 (like a regular Easy skill) rather than -4 since some level of fighting back is instinctive.

DX-4 is the typical default for Easy skills. Compare the Melee Weapon skills (Basic pg.208) - Easy defaults to DX-4, Average to DX-5, Hard to DX-6. So someone completely unskilled in Brawling would have the same default as someone unskilled in Knife, while someone trying to Wrestle unskilled would be as competent as someone picking up a Mace for the first time.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I'm aware of the MA optional rules, but they don't do anything to address the underlying imbalance between, for instance, unskilled brawling attacks and unskilled weapon attacks.

Unskilled hand-to-hand (I'll reserve the word Brawling for something specific, more on that in a sec) attacks are something that the average person practices casually every second of every day that they are grasping, pushing, or otherwise manipulating objects with their hands, IMHO, because they are based on simple hand-eye coordination. Unskilled weapon attacks introduce a complication in the form of a lever or other non-intuitive extension of the limb.

Skilled Brawling represents additional practice at the basics of making contact, sure, but also something else: Access to a body of advanced techniques, some of which are very much more effective than their unskilled counterparts under the right circumstances. Compare a regular kick against a prone target with a proper Stamp Kick, or a regular punch in the jaw with an Uppercut, for example. Same goes for skilled Wrestling vs just latching onto somebody with your hands.

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I'd prefer to have unskilled fighters choose All-Out attacks from necessity, rather than mandate.

It pretty much is necessary if they want to accomplish anything besides flailing away at each other until their friends or the cops pull them apart without the skilled damage bonus. Unless they are remarkably athletic (ie: they have a very high DX and ST), nobody's likely to get hurt by Thrust-1 crushing with no minimum, without AoA (Determined) shots at vulnerable hit locations and/or +2 for AoA (Strong).

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

DX-4 is the typical default for Easy skills. Compare the Melee Weapon skills (Basic pg.208) - Easy defaults to DX-4, Average to DX-5, Hard to DX-6. So someone completely unskilled in Brawling would have the same default as someone unskilled in Knife, while someone trying to Wrestle unskilled would be as competent as someone picking up a Mace for the first time.

However Brawling is not the typical easy skill, it a evolutionary survival skill we train instinctively in. instition alone is the default rough housing is the form of training.

The just like everything else argument doesn't work when it not like everything else.