One-armed revolver reloads (High Tech?)

[acrosome]

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

Which hand is your pistol in while you load it? It bet its the left :-)

Well, duh, but that's a different issue... and I have two hands.

But I certainly unload it by manipulating the gate, cylinder, and ejector with my left hand while holding the grip with my right. Then, as a two-handed person, it is natural to grasp the weapon with my left- which is already around it- while I shove cartridges in with my right. I'm still able to index the cylinder with my left while holding it.

The difference is that while it is possible to hold the weapon in the left and manipulate the cylinder to index it at the same time, you really can't push the ejector one handed so you need to retain your grip with the right while unloading it, but not while loading it.

Do you have a link for that manual of arms? Does it really show the pistol being held by the grip in the left hand? Or does it show it being cradled from beneath by the left hand, as I have described? I can understand if you want to cradle-grip with the left hand a little tighter and use it to index the cylinder, then use the right to work the ejector- that at least makes sense. But holding the grip in the left hand (for a right-handed shooter) makes no sense to me. Why on earth would anyone do that? You're just risking fumbling and dropping the weapon while you switch hands, especially wearing thick leather gloves!

I'll bet that the only difference between what we're thinking of is which hand pushes the ejector. I doubt you mean that the Colt is held by the grip in the left hand. In which case, we just had a minor miscommunication.

Incidentally, I'm sure that there is a way for a one-handed man to reload the Colt SAA. It may be slow and cumbersome, but it is undoubtedly possible. Consider carrying an M1911 with an empty chamber on your strong-side hip. It is very cumbersome to draw, cock, and fire it with your weak hand but almost everyone who carried an M1911 used to learn to do this! I learned the drill, myself: You reach across your belly and draw the pistol from the holster- you'll probably hold it with your thumb on the left side of the grip and your fingers on the right- sort of "upside down" in your hand. (There are people who can reach behind their back with their weak hand and draw into a normal grip, but most can't with a true strong-side hip carry. SOB carry is a different story...) You then clamp it between your knees with the barrel pointed down and the grip pointed forward. You then re-grip it properly, remove it from between your knees, and hook the protruding rear sight on your belt. With a quick push downwards you have cocked the pistol. (Nowadays nobody carries a handgun with an empty chamber, but it used to be pretty common, and this drill is still useful.)

Unfortunately, while some modern reproductions are made in .45LC the historical pistols couldn't be- the cylinder would have to be lengthened. Frankly, with the pi+ modifier .45S&W is certainly enough gun- but then I've always been a Schofield fan.

If he's worried about running out of ammo, and you want a really bad@$$ handgun from the period, how about a LeMat? :) I always kinds liked them, too, as my favorite caplock. Fugly, though. Of course, as a caplock it would be truly difficult for a one-armed guy to reload, but I also found this on a gun blog:

"After the introduction of cartridge-firing firearms, the LeMat system appeared in pinfire, but this version is exceedingly rare. A centerfire version in 12mm Perrin or 11mm Chamelot-Delvigne, with a 24 gauge shot barrel was made in later years in Belgium. While having better sales than its pinfire relative, the centerfire LeMat also had no real commercial success due to the invention of the double-action system. With both weapons, loading was accomplished via a loading gate located at the 4 o' clock position for the cylinder, and by swinging the breech of the shot barrel up and left."

Hmm, those pinfires sound an awful lot like the Lefaucheux, eh?

I don't know if the centerfire was available by 1875- the pinfire certainly was- but I'd bet the centerfire was, too. I'll investigate some more. It does look goofy, though. A picture is partway down the comments on this blog. (The centerfire version should have probably been included in High-Tech- it is exactly the sort of goofy over the top thing players like! And you can't plead rarity- there are a lot of other extremely rare gun variants listed.)

For that matter, I don't see why the character couldn't have had an old caplock LeMat converted to some anemic centerfire round, like .442 RIC. (The thin cylinder probably couldn't survive firing anything heavier...) He'd probably have to leave the shotgun portion muzzle-loading, though. No matter what, finding ammo might be a problem. At least if you kept it caplock he could mold his own balls. Some modern day gunsmiths have converted reproduction caplock LeMats to .38 Long Colt by adding barrel liners and boring a new cylinder. Frankly, for a ridulous sum, a historical 1875 character probably could hire a gunsmith to bore a new barrel, too, and convert to .38LC, leaving the shotgun caplock. This is certainly more interesting than a swing-cylinder Colt SAA, and retains the better looks of the caplock LeMat. The centerfire LeMat looks like a turd.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by acrosome

Was the Schofield never made in .45LC? I seem to remember that with the metallurgy of the day it was too powerful for a break-action, but some modern replicas are made in Long Colt. How about .44-40? but, frankly, with the pi+ modifier .45S&W is certainly enough gun...

High Tech, p.94 (table) and p.95 gives the S&W Number 3 in .44 Russian 2d pi+. The Schofield, it says, is the same pistol chambered for .45 S&W doing 2d-1 pi+. Which is by no means too much gun.

The Colt Single Action Army ("Peacemaker") in .45 Long Colt is listed as doing 3d-2 pi+, which is a fair bit more gun. Against DR0 its 43% more gun than the .45 S&W, 22% more than the .44 Russian. That seems like a dramatic difference.

[acrosome]

Originally Posted by Brett

High Tech, p.94 (table) and p.95 gives the S&W Number 3 in .44 Russian 2d pi+. The Schofield, it says, is the same pistol chambered for .45 S&W doing 2d-1 pi+. Which is by no means too much gun.

The Colt Single Action Army ("Peacemaker") in .45 Long Colt is listed as doing 3d-2 pi+, which is a fair bit more gun. Against DR0 its 43% more gun than the .45 S&W, 22% more than the .44 Russian. That seems like a dramatic difference.

OTOH the .45LC SAA probably was too much gun. The Army actually eventually issued a purposefully under-loaded cartridge. They should have gone with the Schofield- they had the opportunity... :)

P.S. The very concept of a swing-cylinder SAA still grates on my nerves.

P.P.S. I just realized that stats for the 11mm Chamelot-Delvigne (for which some centerfire LeMats were chambered) are in Pulp Guns 1, it does 1d+1 pi+.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by acrosome

OTOH the .45LC SAA probably was too much gun. The Army actually eventually issued a purposefully under-loaded cartridge.

The M1887 .45 Military Ball cartridge? Did they issue that because it was more manageable to fire, or because it would chamber in both their Colt SAA and their S&W Schofield pistols? The way I read it on the Net is seems as though the only problem with the .45 LC was that it was longer than the cylinders on the Schofields. I guess it is telling that they didn't go back to using .45 LC after they disposed of their Schofield revolvers.

[ErhnamDJ]

One thing to keep in mind here is that the .45 LC is probably going to explode whatever it's put in if it's not as solid as the SAA, at least with the metallurgy available in 1875.

If it's put in something with a top break or a swing out cylinder, something's going to give.

It may just be impossible to do this and still fire the LC.

I've seen a (reproduction) Walker converted to swing out, but it was firing the .44 American cartridge afterward. I don't know if it could have handled more pressure than that.

[acrosome]

Originally Posted by Brett

The M1887 .45 Military Ball cartridge? Did they issue that because it was more manageable to fire, or because it would chamber in both their Colt SAA and their S&W Schofield pistols?

If they just wanted a cartridge that would load in both the Schofield and the SAA they only had to purchase .45S&W cartridges- they would fire from the SAA. I understand that the reason that U.S. Army issued an under-powered .45LC cartridge was because the full-powered one kicked like a mule, especially with those hog-leg grips, so a lot of soldiers developed an awful flinch and accuracy suffered. They didn't figure this out until they had decided to adopt the SAA over the Schofield. So, as I said, they should have gone with the Schofield- it is simply a better design, though more expensive. They did purchase and use a few before they decided to go with the SAA, and by all accounts they gave good service.

But, yes, the .45LC is considerably longer than the .45S&W, and that's why there were no .45LC Schofields. (There are modern reproduction .45LC Schofields with longer cylinders, however.)

EDIT--- Wait! I was wrong. I was, in fact, thinking of the .45S&W cartridge when I mentioned the under-loaded .45LC cartridges. The U.S. Army often used them in the SAA instead of the .45LC, to reduce recoil, as mentioned above. (And, incidentally, as mentioned in High Tech.) I can't find any information on under-powered .45LC cartridges being issued.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

I've seen a (reproduction) Walker converted to swing out, but it was firing the .44 American cartridge afterward. I don't know if it could have handled more pressure than that.

Before conversion that would have been a cap & ball revolver, right? So it was converted to fire cartridges at the same time it was converted to a swing-out cylinder?

[Comedian]

OTOH the .45LC SAA probably was too much gun. The Army actually eventually issued a purposefully under-loaded cartridge.

The first time I fired a .45 long colt I remember thunder griping the pistol and damn near jerking the trigger into the ground. Completely unnecessary, at least with standard (non +p) loadings it's a *****cat in that big a gun.

The S&W Schofield is basically the same as the S&W Number 3 on p.95 of High Tech, right? The version re-chambered in .45 S&W? That has a surprisingly low damage. Perhaps the player might like it better in the original .44 Russian. It also came in .44 Henry and .44-40 Winchester, I understand. What would it be like in those loadings?

High-Tech has the .44 henry loadings as doing exactly the same damage as .44 Russian (2d pi+), there isn't a listing for .44-40. My personal recommendation (outside of just buying and using MORE peacemakers as secondaries) would be to use .44 russian or .44 Henry +p loads and you'll get close to the same average damage as .45lc. 2d+1 yields an average of 8 damage and 3d-2 yields an average of 8.5 damage. Yeah it's slightly less damage, but it's worth the trade off for the reload times.

If the character is going to have spent a lot of money (etc.) getting a pistol made or modified, might he not consider getting one made with a break-open like the Schofield, but in .45 Long Colt? Would that be easier and cheaper than having a Colt Single Action Army modified to have a swing-out cylinder? It certainly sounds more effective, because it sounds to me as though a man with one hand is going to find it slow, difficult, and awkward to reload a swing-out revolver.

I recommended this earlier, it's certainly possible to have a S&W number 3 pistol in .45 long colt seeing as the majority of modern replicas are made in that chambering. The problem I suspect would be that you'd have to get a new cylinder (I think .45 long colt is too long for the cylinder to just be bored out to the new caliber), possibly modify the frame to accommodate it, and strengthen the opening latch for the heavier loading. Difficult, but if it's being bought as signature gear it's not to far fetched that the character got a one-off. Perhaps in your setting S&W made a prototype Number 3 in .45 long colt in an attempt to compete with Colt but ended up ditching it and, by a stroke of incredible luck, the PC has ended up with it.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by acrosome

If they just wanted a cartridge that would load in both the Schofield and the SAA they only had to purchase .45S&W cartridges- they would fire from the SAA.

I've read that their rims were too big, and would sometimes encroach on one another from adjacent chambers when loaded into weapons chambered for .45 LC. The M1887 cartridge had the narrow rim of the .45 LC combined with the short length of the .45 S&W. Or so I read.

But I'm not surprised by what you say about the unmanageable recoil and excessive blast of the .45 Long Colt. After all, the Army stuck with its M1887 cartridges after it sold off its Schofield revolvers. The whole thing is reminiscent in a way of 10mm Auto, 10mm FBI Load, and .40 S&W.

Originally Posted by Comedian

2d+1 yields an average of 8 damage and 3d-2 yields an average of 8.5 damage. Yeah it's slightly less damage, but it's worth the trade off for the reload times.

It turns out after applying the wounding modifier and rounding to be 0.75 points of wounding per hit, against an unarmoured target. 12.5 points on average to 11.75 points on average. The advantage of 3d-2 increases against a bit of DR.

I recommended this earlier, it's certainly possible to have a S&W number 3 pistol in .45 long colt seeing as the majority of modern replicas are made in that chambering. The problem I suspect would be that you'd have to get a new cylinder (I think .45 long colt is too long for the cylinder to just be bored out to the new caliber), possibly modify the frame to accommodate it, and strengthen the opening latch for the heavier loading.

That sounds right to me. Apparently you could fire .45 S&W out of weapons made for .45 LC, but the Schofield's cylinders were just too short for the .45 Long Colt cartridges. So it sounds as though you'd need a new, longer cylinder and a longer frame. That's a big modification.

[acrosome]

Here's an auction site with great photos of the centerfire LeMat:

http://www.horstheld.com/0-Lemat-25.htm

Fugly.

The actual auction item is described as both 11mm and 12mm in different places, so I'm not sure which is accurate. FWIW the 11mm round is described as popular at the time (presumably in Europe, not North America). The shotgun barrel looks to be breach-loading, and is described as "15mm = .60, probably 20 gauge short." The patent looks to date to 1869, so it would probably be available in 1875.

When you change calibers in GURPS does the resulting gun use the 1/2D and Max ranges of the unmodified gun or of the new cartridge? If, for example, I were to try to cobble together stats for this 11mm LeMat? For that matter is the ST characteristic of a handgun a function of it's weight or of the cartridge power? (I presume that Rcl is a function of both...)

EDIT- ok, heck, I thought about it, and I guess I would change the 11x17mmR LeMat stats to: Damage 1d+1 pi+, Range 100/1100, Weight 3.7/0.2, Shots 9(3i), Rcl 2. It would also probably cost more, since it was developed later in TL5. Having a lack of any info on what it weighed I kept the weight the same- the 11mm cartridges are heavier, but the cylinder was more heavily inletted. The shotgun part I'm not so sure- I simply cannot find information about how many pellets were in this "20 gauge short" shell, but just modifying the caplock versions to Damage 1d pi, Shots 1(3i), RoF 1x7 is probably reasonable. This puts it more in line with a more modern 20 gauge, including less pellets since the original caplock shotgun was 18 gauge (though pi-). But if the pictures are anything to go by that shell was damned short and it may have been less powerful and/or have even fewer pellets. (I compared to the Ithaca Auto Burglar, but nonetheless this is totally made up.)

P.S. here are some pictures of the pinfire version:

http://www.horstheld.com/0-Lemat-123.htm

(The shotgun looks like it remained caplock.)

Heres another auction site with pictures of the crazy centerfire LeMat carbine:

http://rockislandauction.com/view_item/aid/48/lid/3076