[High Tech/Tactical Shooting] Reloading Your Shotgun

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Those are the places I looked and couldn't find the reference for Fast-Draw (Ammo).

Now that I'm back home to check, you're looking for Reloading Your Weapon, starting on HT86. Or, more specifically, the Fixed Ammo section of that, on HT87 (it continues to the first paragraph of HT88, for belt or strip feed weapons). That goes through what the reloading process entails, as well as stating what effect Fast-Draw (Ammo) has.

For completion, the Double-Loading Technique is on HT251, and only applies to things like revolvers and multi-barrel weapons there - but TS44 expands this to work for tube-fed shotguns as well. Quick Reload is on TS39.

EDIT: If you want to expand Double-Loading to allow for an arbitrary number of bullets grabbed and loaded at once (realistically, more than 2 at a time is probably a bad idea, but 3 or maybe 4 could probably be done before getting overly cinematic), I think it would work to basically have it be that, when grabbing n rounds at a time, you shave off n-1 seconds off the time to load said n rounds. Have a table; QD is the modifier to Quick-Draw (this should probably be halved for Gunslingers), No QR is without the Quick Reload Perk, QR is with it. The reload times are to fully reload the weapon; note I have listed Shots as 3n, to avoid the oddities of such weapons with Shots that aren't a multiple of 3 (for those, each shot takes a bit less time; this is a resolution issue, thanks to GURPS not dealing with fractional seconds), and I'm assuming a weapon that is a gate-loaded shotgun or similar (normally 2 seconds per cartridge). The parenthetical numbers are how long it takes, on average, to reload each round.

n	Shots	QD	No QR		QR
1	3	+0	5 (1.67)	4 (1.33)
2	6	-2	7 (1.17)	6 (1)
3	9	-4	9 (1)		7 (0.78)
4	12	-6	11 (0.92)	9 (0.75)
5	15	-8	13 (0.87)	10 (0.67)
6	18	-10	15 (0.83)	12 (0.67)

[MrFix]

To put the talks of round up and down to rest, we have an official example here from TS39

Reloading a 5-round Internal Tube Magazine Gun (With Loading Gate)... five with quick reload, or 6 without double-loading.

5 seconds with Quick Reload. Let's break it down. 5 shots of 2i is 10 seconds.
No fractions version:
10 - 1 (fast draw for capacity of 3 shots) - 2 (Double Loading for capacity of 4 shots) = 7.
7*0.75=5.25
5.25 rounds up to 6.

One could argue that 6 still qualifies for Quick Reload's minimum saving of 1 second from the 7 seconds without Quick Reload.

Now we have an obvious issue here. If we drop fractions, then 5-shot tube reload should take 6 seconds. The book states it takes five. Let's try again.

Retaining fractons verson:

10 - 1.66 (Fast Draw for Capacity of 5 shots) - 2 (Double Loading for capacity of 4 shots) = 6.34
6.34*0.75=4.755
4.755 rounds up to 5 seconds.

Now we've hit the exact number as it appears in the book, 5 seconds. I think this closes the issue of whether to round up Fast-Draw etc mid equation or not. The answer is 'not'.

I'll go over my OP post numbers again with this information. I was quite sleepy when I wrote all that.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Now that I'm back home to check, you're looking for Reloading Your Weapon, starting on HT86. Or, more specifically, the Fixed Ammo section of that, on HT87 (it continues to the first paragraph of HT88, for belt or strip feed weapons). That goes through what the reloading process entails, as well as stating what effect Fast-Draw (Ammo) has.

For completion, the Double-Loading Technique is on HT251, and only applies to things like revolvers and multi-barrel weapons there - but TS44 expands this to work for tube-fed shotguns as well. Quick Reload is on TS39.

EDIT: If you want to expand Double-Loading to allow for an arbitrary number of bullets grabbed and loaded at once (realistically, more than 2 at a time is probably a bad idea, but 3 or maybe 4 could probably be done before getting overly cinematic), I think it would work to basically have it be that, when grabbing n rounds at a time, you shave off n-1 seconds off the time to load said n rounds. Have a table; QD is the modifier to Quick-Draw (this should probably be halved for Gunslingers), No QR is without the Quick Reload Perk, QR is with it. The reload times are to fully reload the weapon; note I have listed Shots as 3n, to avoid the oddities of such weapons with Shots that aren't a multiple of 3 (for those, each shot takes a bit less time; this is a resolution issue, thanks to GURPS not dealing with fractional seconds), and I'm assuming a weapon that is a gate-loaded shotgun or similar (normally 2 seconds per cartridge). The parenthetical numbers are how long it takes, on average, to reload each round.

n	Shots	QD	No QR		QR
1	3	+0	5 (1.67)	4 (1.33)
2	6	-2	7 (1.17)	6 (1)
3	9	-4	9 (1)		7 (0.78)
4	12	-6	11 (0.92)	9 (0.75)
5	15	-8	13 (0.87)	10 (0.67)
6	18	-10	15 (0.83)	12 (0.67)

Cheers for that, certainly an option.

I mainly wanted to just draw multiple ammo shots to hold in one hand and then LOAD as normal, by using multiple fast-draw rules. Like in this video.


https://youtu.be/UhGI0bRAX-k?t=35

[MrFix]

Went over the stuff again.
Op Post Question 1 situation:

Fast-Draw simply doesn't work for single-shot shotguns or reloading 1 shot of a shotgun (should be functionaly identical). It shaves off 0.33, down to 1.66 seconds, then rounds up back to 2 seconds. There's a serious argument to be made for Fast-Draw (Ammo)'s minimum of saving 1 second from Basic Set.

If we accept that there's a minimum of 1 second saving, then it takes 1 second to reload a single shot of a shotgun with Fast-Draw.
--------------------------------------------
Op Post Question 2 Situation:

1.66*0.75=1.245
Rounds up to 2 but reduced to 1 due to Quick Reload.

At the same time, if we accept that Fast-Draw should shave at least one second, and quick reload should shave at least 1 second...

2 - 1 (Fast-Draw) - 1 (Quick Reload) = 0

Loading 1 round is a free action with Quick Reload???
--------------------------------------------
Op Post Question 3 situation:

Reloading 2 shots of a shotgun takes 4 seconds, for 2i gun.

4 - 0.66 (Fast Draw) - 1 (Double Loading) = 2.34
2.34*0,75=1.755
This rounds up to 2. Argument can be made that 2 is an improvement over 2.34 with Double Loading, so it takes 2 seconds to reload 2 shots.

If we accept that Fast-Draw should shave at least one second...
4 - 1 (Fast Draw) - 1 (Double Loading) = 2
2*0,75=1.5

Quick Reload saves at least 1 second, thus it takes 1 second to reload 2 shots.
-------------------------------------------
Op Post Question 4 Situation:

My shotgun now has 6 shots, takes 12 seconds to reload.

12 - 2 (Fast-Draw) - 3 (Double Loading)=7

7*0.75=5.25

Since 6 is arguably a saving of 1 second from 7, we round up from 5.25 to 6. It takes 6 seconds to reload my shotgun.

-------------------------------------------
It seems that Hard and Fast rule is that, after all the various adjustments, minimum speed needed to load 1 shell is 1 second.

-------------------------------------------

Remaining issues
---------------------------
Issue 1: Does Fast-Draw alone, or with combination with Quick Reload, shave off at least 1 second?

This is important for shotguns like Serbu Super Shorty (TS60), that are internal magazine but only 2 shots.

Loading 1 shot:
If we accept that it doesn't, pure Fast-Draw has zero effect on reloading a single shot of a shotgun, which is weird.

If we accept that it does, pure Fast-Draw makes loading a single shot a 1 ready action, and free action with Quick Reload.

This may seem weird, but Quick Reload turns Detachable Magazine reload from 2 seconds to Free Action. Is it truly slower to load 1 shell, than to load 1 magazine?

Loading 2 shots:
If we accept that Fast-Draw does not reduce reload time by at least one second, loading 2 shots (with double loading) takes:
4 - 0.66 - 1=2.33 2.33*0.75=1.7475 or 2 seconds.

If we accept that it does:

4-1-1=2. 2*0,75=1.5. Rounds up to 2, but Quick Reload saves 1 second for total of 1 second to reload 2 shots.

This issue doesn't cover shotguns with 3 shots or more, since Fast Draw in that situation DOES shave off at least 1 second.

This issue is generally important due to the fact that most Shotgun shooters will opt to load their guns 1 or 2 shots at a time, rather than commit to entire 6-shot reload in the middle of battle.
-------------------------------------
Issue 2: If we assume that Fast-Draw cuts off at least 1 second from reloading 1 shot, making it a free action... Could one make 6 Multiple Fast-Draws to load 6 shells into the shotgun as a free action? Penalty would be -10. -0 for first shell, and -2 per 5 remaining.

If we assume that Fast-Draw cuts off at least 1 second from reloading 2 shots, making reloading 2 shots 1 ready action... Could one make 3 fast-draw rolls in 3 seconds (not penalized) to reload a 6-shot shotgun in 3 seconds instead of normal 6?

Thoughts?

Another critical issue.

Example:Reloading a Remington Model 870 (pp. 105-106) takes 10 seconds, or eight with Fast-Draw.

High Tech 87.
Model 870 in table shows as 5+1 Shotgun with (2i) reload. Meaning it takes 10 seconds to reload it normally.

Fast-Draw for such a weapon, RAW, would shave off 1.66 seconds, making such reload 8.34. High Tech insists it is 8 seconds instead.

Does that mean Fast-Draw rounds to better if no other skills or perks are used? Does it round to nearest? How does that work?

If we assume it rounds to nearest, then Tactical Shooting's 5-round internal magazine reload with all options is...

10 seconds baseline - 2 (1.66 Fast Draw rounds up to nearest) - 2 (Double Loading) = 6. 6*0.75=4.5 4.5 rounds up to 5, and 5 is one second saving from 6 (Quick Reload)

[Donny Brook]

The rules on HT87 contain a rather peculiar incongruity.

Fast-draw typically reduces a one-turn Ready requirement to a free action.

On HT87 we see this consistently represented in the rules for breechloaders, gate-loading revolvers, and break-open revolvers, each of which indicate "one [Ready maneouver] to retrieve a fresh cartridge", with a one-to-one reduction in time for Fast-Draw (Ammo).

This consistency is inexplicably broken, however, for internal magazines with gates. The rules still say it takes a one Ready maneouver for each cartridge, but for no apparent reason Fast-Draw (Ammo) changes from a one-for-one maneouver reduction to a three-for-one. This makes no sense. How can it be significantly different to retrieve a cartridge based on the weapon it is going to go into?

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by MrFix

Fast-Draw simply doesn't work for single-shot shotguns or reloading 1 shot of a shotgun (should be functionaly identical).

A single-shot shotgun is going to be a breechloader, and use those rules instead. In theory you could design a tube-fed shotgun which has an internal magazine of 1 shot, but there's no good reason to - you lose the benefits of a breechloader (cheaper for a given level of power and reliability) without really getting the benefits of an internal magazine (not having to reload after every shot, for a higher rate of fire if you need it). The 1-shot-magazine shotgun would have a higher rate of fire than the breechloader (it's quicker to shove a shot in and rack the shotgun than it is to open the breach, place in a shot, and then close the breach), but if you're able to make a tube-fed shotgun, there's no reason (outside of legal ones, although a polity that can ban internal magazines of more than one shot would probably just ban firearms outright) not to give it more than one shot.

Originally Posted by MrFix

If we accept that there's a minimum of 1 second saving, then it takes 1 second to reload a single shot of a shotgun with Fast-Draw.

I addressed above why this can become problematic (given it's supposed to take 5 seconds to reload 3 shots), and some options to handle it.

Originally Posted by MrFix

Loading 1 round is a free action with Quick Reload???

Yeah, this is another issue if assessing it one round at a time. Quick Reload should basically subtract a further 1 second per 3 shots*; I'd assess the savings for the second shot, for a pattern of 1-1-2, rather than the first, which would be a pattern of 0-2-2.

*Technically, if you have a tube-fed shotgun with 12 or more shots, Quick Reload would actually reduce this by an additional second (12 shots in normally 24 seconds to reload; Fast-Draw makes this 20 seconds, and Quick Reload makes it 15; the 1-per-3 for Quick Reload would have made it 16); where in the sequence this would go is up to you - I'd advise against making any of the reloads take 0 seconds, however, instead reducing one of the 2-second reloads to 1.

Originally Posted by MrFix

Quick Reload saves at least 1 second, thus it takes 1 second to reload 2 shots.

Double-Loading is a bit odd here, because it's assessed per 2 shots, Fast-Draw is assessed per 3. Really, your best option in this case is to calculate how long it takes to fully reload the weapon, look at the average amount of time this takes, and use that (deal with fractions as you see fit). Double-Loading+Quick Reload pretty consistently (for tube-fed shotguns) results in a number of seconds to reload equal to number of shots (an exception is 4 shots - you're looking at an 8 second base, 6 seconds with Fast-Draw, 4 seconds with Double Loading, and thus 3 seconds when you add in Quick Reload), so just use 2 seconds per 2 shots and you should be good (for a 4-shot magazine, you could say 1 second for the first two shots, 2 seconds for the next, but this is pretty clearly an artifact of being right at a breakpoint in the system's resolution).

Originally Posted by MrFix

Since 6 is arguably a saving of 1 second from 7, we round up from 5.25 to 6. It takes 6 seconds to reload my shotgun.

Yep, and this really is the way to do it - calculate the time to reload the whole thing, then break that down into individual shots, rather than the other way around.

Originally Posted by MrFix

It seems that Hard and Fast rule is that, after all the various adjustments, minimum speed needed to load 1 shell is 1 second.

-ish. You can load 2 shells at once in 2 seconds (Double-Loading + Quick Reload), or you can load one shell in roughly 1.33 seconds (Fast-Draw + Quick Reload), for the 1-1-2 pattern in the latter case. There are exceptions at the breakpoints, however.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

This consistency is inexplicably broken, however, for internal magazines with gates. The rules still say it takes a one Ready maneouver for each cartridge, but for no apparent reason Fast-Draw (Ammo) changes from a one-for-one maneouver reduction to a three-for-one. This makes no sense. How can it be significantly different to retrieve a cartridge based on the weapon it is going to go into?

Yeah, this is the issue with calculating these numbers for gate-loaded weapons. I think the idea was that a full second of reduction per cartridge is actually too high, but acceptable in most cases - for detachable magazines, you're only going to reload on occasion, while for other weapons there's a lot of other bits involved in the reloading process that Fast-Draw should speed up, so you just let it shave a full second off of each cartridge and that makes things work alright. So, realistically, someone with Fast-Draw (Ammo) and a breechloader is actually faster (on a success) at all four steps - opening the breech, drawing the cartridge from his pocket/bandolier/whatever, inserting the cartridge, and closing the breech. GURPS approximates this by just combining the drawing and inserting of the cartridge into a single second.

By contrast, a tube-fed shotgun's reload process consists of only drawing the cartridge and inserting it (racking the shotgun can be included here or as part of the later Attack, or some intervening maneuver - it takes little enough time to be fine either way). 2 seconds is about right for that, but if we make it just 1 second per cartridge we end up with a 5-shot shotgun taking only 5 seconds to reload by anyone with training in doing so, when that's really something that only the best speed-reloaders can accomplish (I assume, from the way TS handles things).

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Varyon

A single-shot shotgun is going to be a breechloader, and use those rules instead. In theory you could design a tube-fed shotgun which has an internal magazine of 1 shot, but there's no good reason to - you lose the benefits of a breechloader (cheaper for a given level of power and reliability) without really getting the benefits of an internal magazine (not having to reload after every shot, for a higher rate of fire if you need it). The 1-shot-magazine shotgun would have a higher rate of fire than the breechloader (it's quicker to shove a shot in and rack the shotgun than it is to open the breach, place in a shot, and then close the breach), but if you're able to make a tube-fed shotgun, there's no reason (outside of legal ones, although a polity that can ban internal magazines of more than one shot would probably just ban firearms outright) not to give it more than one shot.



I addressed above why this can become problematic (given it's supposed to take 5 seconds to reload 3 shots), and some options to handle it.



Yeah, this is another issue if assessing it one round at a time. Quick Reload should basically subtract a further 1 second per 3 shots*; I'd assess the savings for the second shot, for a pattern of 1-1-2, rather than the first, which would be a pattern of 0-2-2.

*Technically, if you have a tube-fed shotgun with 12 or more shots, Quick Reload would actually reduce this by an additional second (12 shots in normally 24 seconds to reload; Fast-Draw makes this 20 seconds, and Quick Reload makes it 15; the 1-per-3 for Quick Reload would have made it 16); where in the sequence this would go is up to you - I'd advise against making any of the reloads take 0 seconds, however, instead reducing one of the 2-second reloads to 1.



Double-Loading is a bit odd here, because it's assessed per 2 shots, Fast-Draw is assessed per 3. Really, your best option in this case is to calculate how long it takes to fully reload the weapon, look at the average amount of time this takes, and use that (deal with fractions as you see fit). Double-Loading+Quick Reload pretty consistently (for tube-fed shotguns) results in a number of seconds to reload equal to number of shots (an exception is 4 shots - you're looking at an 8 second base, 6 seconds with Fast-Draw, 4 seconds with Double Loading, and thus 3 seconds when you add in Quick Reload), so just use 2 seconds per 2 shots and you should be good (for a 4-shot magazine, you could say 1 second for the first two shots, 2 seconds for the next, but this is pretty clearly an artifact of being right at a breakpoint in the system's resolution).



Yep, and this really is the way to do it - calculate the time to reload the whole thing, then break that down into individual shots, rather than the other way around.



-ish. You can load 2 shells at once in 2 seconds (Double-Loading + Quick Reload), or you can load one shell in roughly 1.33 seconds (Fast-Draw + Quick Reload), for the 1-1-2 pattern in the latter case. There are exceptions at the breakpoints, however.

Single-shot reloading is equivalent to tactically reloading 1 shot to top off the tube. Spending 6-12 rounds just loading in one spot with only a step and hand off the gun, full of ammo, is dangerous. The deep purpose behind the thread is to find the most optimal way to tactically reload, be it 1, 2 or 3 shots. Thats why free action 1 shell and ready action 2 shells got me excited.
I could move full speed one round, reloading one shell, kneel before cover and reload two shells, fire once and reload one shell, hide behind cover and reload 2 shells, fire again, reload 2 shells and have full gun. 6 rounds spent loading, 1 out which I'm mobile, 2 out of Which I fire. So in total only 3 rounds totally out of combat - like detachable magazine!

[Donny Brook]

The first time I read this rule a few years ago, I interpreted it to mean that you could Fast-Draw three shells at one time and feed them from you hand into the gate. I think the wording might support that interpretation, but now I see the example doesn't.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by MrFix

Single-shot reloading is equivalent to tactically reloading 1 shot to top off the tube. Spending 6-12 rounds just loading in one spot with only a step and hand off the gun, full of ammo, is dangerous. The deep purpose behind the thread is to find the most optimal way to tactically reload, be it 1, 2 or 3 shots. Thats why free action 1 shell and ready action 2 shells got me excited.

Yeah, that would be pretty useful - and if your GM is fine with interpreting things that way, go for it (honestly, for a cinematic campaign, letting someone reload a shell instantly with Fast-Draw + Quick Reload would be perfectly acceptable; keep in mind attempting to do this again calls for a penalized Fast-Draw for the next attempt, so it's not free reign to fully reload your shotgun in an instant). If your GM interprets it the same way I do, however, you could see if he'd allow for you to take an Advantage that causes your reloads to work this way. Kromm has previously suggested Extra Ready (which from his later examples lets you tack a Ready onto any other Maneuver, not just get 2 Readies for a single Maneuver, like Extra Attack) would cost [20]. "Only for reloading a shotgun" is a pretty substantial Limitation; I'd be inclined to let you have it for [5]... or given the investment you already have (Fast-Draw, Quick Reload, and the Double-Loading Technique), I might be inclined to make it just a Perk, particularly if it requires you to succeed on your Fast-Draw roll to pull it off. The result of that would be that you can roll against Fast-Draw and use that "free" Ready to reload one shell, then take some other action with your actual Maneuver, resetting the counter so your next reload is also 1 second, or you can roll against Double-Loading (which you've probably bought up to Fast-Draw+0) and use both Readies (the free one and the one from taking a Ready maneuver) to load two shells in one second.

[fula farbrorn]

I just wanted to say that Quad loading is VERY much a realistic use of fast draw ammo.

you would change your grip and turn the gun port upwards meanwhile you fastdraw 4 rounds from your belt

then you insert all 4, 2 at a time.

https://youtu.be/LHbfXlphbu0