[Houserule] Brawling Default at DX-4

[vierasmarius]

Something that has long bugged me is the way unarmed attacks can be made untrained at full DX. It means that there is very little difference between someone with no skill at all, and someone who's spent as much as 200 hours in self-defense classes (I know the training time rules shouldn't be used in reverse like that, but work with me a sec, okay?) This is especially apparent when you have two completely unskilled combatants brawling, and then one picks up a stick and suddenly incurs a relative -5 skill penalty.

The easy solution to this seems to be to make Brawling and Wrestling (the "basic" unarmed fighting skills) default to DX-4 and DX-5, respectively. This means that either All-Out or Telegraphic become almost mandatory for unskilled brawlers, which to me seems pretty realistic. It also means that unarmed combat skills are a candidate for the Dabbler perk, which again seems appropriate, considering the number of people who's only fighting experience is childhood roughhousing and a self-defense class or two.

Anybody have thoughts on this idea? Love it, hate it, don't care?

[Verjigorm]

Martial Arts addresses this, with an optional rule that heavily restricts the ability to choose your manuevers for those with no combat skills.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Martial Arts addresses this, with an optional rule that heavily restricts the ability to choose your manuevers for those with no combat skills.

I'm aware of the MA optional rules, but they don't do anything to address the underlying imbalance between, for instance, unskilled brawling attacks and unskilled weapon attacks. I'd prefer to have unskilled fighters choose All-Out attacks from necessity, rather than mandate.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I'm aware of the MA optional rules, but they don't do anything to address the underlying imbalance between, for instance, unskilled brawling attacks and unskilled weapon attacks. I'd prefer to have unskilled fighters choose All-Out attacks from necessity, rather than mandate.

So you going to force everyone that rough housed as a kid to buy a level of brawling? that what the default represents after all.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

So you going to force everyone that rough housed as a kid to buy a level of brawling? that what the default represents after all.

I could certainly see everyone who rough housed as a kid taking a Dabbler perk that included Brawling.

Personally I'm in favor of a default for Brawling rather than full Dex. But I'd put it at -3 (like a regular Easy skill) rather than -4 since some level of fighting back is instinctive.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by aesir23

I could certainly see everyone who rough housed as a kid taking a Dabbler perk that included Brawling.

Personally I'm in favor of a default for Brawling rather than full Dex. But I'd put it at -3 (like a regular Easy skill) rather than -4 since some level of fighting back is instinctive.

Exet childhood ruff housing is the humans human norm, and is deftly someting that should be part of the [0] human template... kinda going against the point.

I rather have like Illiterate [-3]; Never Ruff-housed[-1]

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Personally I'm in favor of a default for Brawling rather than full Dex. But I'd put it at -3 (like a regular Easy skill) rather than -4 since some level of fighting back is instinctive.

DX-4 is the typical default for Easy skills. Compare the Melee Weapon skills (Basic pg.208) - Easy defaults to DX-4, Average to DX-5, Hard to DX-6. So someone completely unskilled in Brawling would have the same default as someone unskilled in Knife, while someone trying to Wrestle unskilled would be as competent as someone picking up a Mace for the first time.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

So you going to force everyone that rough housed as a kid to buy a level of brawling? that what the default represents after all.

If someone just rough housed as a kid, they would have default Brawling, ie DX-4. Maybe higher, ie Dabbler perk for DX-3 or DX-2. Someone with actual training, or more practical experience, has a full point, for Brawling at DX. My problem with the RAW is that there's no real difference between basic training (1 cp, Brawling at DX) and default (0cp, unarmed strikes at DX).

The main difference that this would mean for PCs is that, if they expect or intend to fight unarmed, they can't get away with just default use.

[Kyle Aaron]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

The main difference that this would mean for PCs is that, if they expect or intend to fight unarmed, they can't get away with just default use.

You seem to be imagining melee combat as like a couple of ironclads lying side-by-side firing broadsides into each-other until one is pounded to smithereens. It's a wee bit more complicated than that, at least in GURPS. These complications come from the various combat options, options which are improved in usefulness by (a) having access to them at all, and (2) putting CP into them.

Having at least 1CP in the Brawling skill allows you to parry two different attacks a round. So the default brawler confronted by two foes will only be able to parry one of them, the skilled brawler can parry both.

Having at least 1CP in Brawling allows you to use a blackjack or sap or similar, giving +1 to damage. The punch will do basic thrust damage, for a ST10 character that's 1d-2, or 1d-1 for kicking. A blackjack/sap takes punching to 1d-1 - so the skilled brawler can do as much damage with their fists as the default brawler can with their feet.

Remember that by the rules, you cannot get defaults off defaults, only off Attributes or Skills with at least 1CP in them. So Techniques cannot be used until there's at least 1CP in Brawling. Most GMs would allow the default brawler to kick, but probably not disarm, etc. So if it does nothing else, the 1CP in Brawling unlocks access to those techniques - but you'd probably want to spend some CP on some of them.

And having techniques above default will be useful. For example, kicking at Brawling-2 - well, if you've DX10 and you kick at 8, you have just a 25.9% chance of connecting - and if you miss, you have to roll vs DX or fall over (and DX10 will give you a 50% chance of staying up or falling). Why would you kick? Because it does +1 damage, and another +1 if you're wearing heavy boots.

So the default brawler can try to kick and will usually miss and half the time fall down, the skilled brawler can kick and do extra damage. This extra damage means an extra chance of achieving a "major wound" (over HP/2), or crippling wounds on limbs (HP/2) or hands/feet (HP/3) or knocking them out by a blow to the head, etc.

So the default brawler confronted with a skilled brawler or brawlers may shortly find themselves on the ground (whether from falling over or being injured) being kicked into crippled unconsciousness. And lacking the Ground Fighting technique, and unable to parry more than one foe at once, the default brawler is even more doomed.

A default brawler may have been grappled, and thus be unable to punch or kick, or parry. Someone else may be laying into them. They would probably then wish they were a skilled brawler and could head butt, knee, elbow and so on.

Other techniques include: aggressive parry, disarming, elbow drop, elbow strike, eye-poke, eye-rake, eye-gouging, feint, ground fighting, head butt, jam, knee drop, knee strike, push kick, stamp kick, sweeping kick, two-handed punch, and uppercut.

And all of these will be useful at some time.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I'm aware of the MA optional rules, but they don't do anything to address the underlying imbalance between, for instance, unskilled brawling attacks and unskilled weapon attacks.

Unskilled hand-to-hand (I'll reserve the word Brawling for something specific, more on that in a sec) attacks are something that the average person practices casually every second of every day that they are grasping, pushing, or otherwise manipulating objects with their hands, IMHO, because they are based on simple hand-eye coordination. Unskilled weapon attacks introduce a complication in the form of a lever or other non-intuitive extension of the limb.

Skilled Brawling represents additional practice at the basics of making contact, sure, but also something else: Access to a body of advanced techniques, some of which are very much more effective than their unskilled counterparts under the right circumstances. Compare a regular kick against a prone target with a proper Stamp Kick, or a regular punch in the jaw with an Uppercut, for example. Same goes for skilled Wrestling vs just latching onto somebody with your hands.

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I'd prefer to have unskilled fighters choose All-Out attacks from necessity, rather than mandate.

It pretty much is necessary if they want to accomplish anything besides flailing away at each other until their friends or the cops pull them apart without the skilled damage bonus. Unless they are remarkably athletic (ie: they have a very high DX and ST), nobody's likely to get hurt by Thrust-1 crushing with no minimum, without AoA (Determined) shots at vulnerable hit locations and/or +2 for AoA (Strong).