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Old 09-24-2018, 12:39 PM   #21
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Default Re: Does DFRPG more and more resemble a super hero game to you

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Originally Posted by robertsconley View Post
For every edition of D&D except for D&D 4th edition, DF RPG play at much higher power level with a broad ranges of choices both for combat and non-combat encounters. It a result of the focus on 250 points.
3 and 3.5 was possibly even more "super-hero-y" than 4th, in part because of the proliferation of OGL material and sketchy quality control of even WotC work in the start of 3e.

Comparing 250 points to 5th level as an argument that this is "superheroy" is a little amusing to me, because I'm constantly bumping into people who don't regard D&D (3e, 4e, 5e, Pathfinder...) as "starting" until level 4 or 5.
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Old 09-24-2018, 01:11 PM   #22
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Default Re: Does DFRPG more and more resemble a super hero game to you

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3 and 3.5 was possibly even more "super-hero-y" than 4th, in part because of the proliferation of OGL material and sketchy quality control of even WotC work in the start of 3e.
Sure, and OD&D if PCs have +5 gear by 6th level it get real sketchy as well. All editions of D&D are easily broken in that respect. However D&D 3.X if one stuck to the core books is fairly solid. The superheroic do in kick post 10th level even with the core rules. But in OD&D or 5th edition the same thing happens just using different set of mechanics.

Largely understandable that levels in D&D started out as a reflection that a "hero" is worth 4 veteran warrior and a "super hero" is worth 8 veteran warrior. It didn't quite work out that way with the initial release of OD&D but starting around 9th to 10th level all D&D character start to be force of a nature rather competent professionals.

However for most the sweet spot starts around 5th level and ends around 10th with the character often "establishing" themselves.



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Comparing 250 points to 5th level as an argument that this is "superheroy" is a little amusing to me, because I'm constantly bumping into people who don't regard D&D (3e, 4e, 5e, Pathfinder...) as "starting" until level 4 or 5.
Sorry I wasn't clear I consider 150 pts to be 5th level. For me 250 pts is GURPS equivalent of "name" level. At least that how it worked out in my Majestic Wilderlands campaign.

In general when I run the Majestic Wilderlands in GURPS, for NPCs I use templates from historical folks for "1st level" or 1 HD, and add 25 pt per level or hit dice beyond.
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Old 09-24-2018, 02:01 PM   #23
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Default Re: Does DFRPG more and more resemble a super hero game to you

The 250-point starting level is an admission that when you play near-pure hack 'n' slash, few gamers like the "grinding" needed to get to a level where you can do the cool stuff heroes do in films and video games, and where you aren't likely to die all the time. In the kind of game where social play and noncombat challenges are as important as or more important than invade-kill-loot, I agree that 250 points is almost too powerful. But even more than GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, the DFRPG isn't that kind of game. It just skins "Spam your attack button!" game play with enough other options to be slightly less repetitive than a digital game, and to make it worth having a GM to rule on wacky ideas.
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Old 09-24-2018, 02:31 PM   #24
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Default Re: Does DFRPG more and more resemble a super hero game to you

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The 250-point starting level is an admission that when you play near-pure hack 'n' slash,
That the flaw thinking Dungeon Delving just about hack 'n' slash and everything prior is about grinding to that point.

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In the kind of game where social play and noncombat challenges are as important as or more important than invade-kill-loot, I agree that 250 points is almost too powerful.
It is very rare that either are not important even if the campaign is centered on a megadungeon.

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But even more than GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, the DFRPG isn't that kind of game.
It can be with an straightforward fix, templates dedicated toward 125 pt (or maybe lower) and an expansion of the monsters to give variety of opposition for lower point adventurers. Along with perhaps adventures to support this. Everything else in DF works irregardless of the point level of the character. Which is why the DF line has proven useful for my Majestic Wilderlands campaign when I use GURPS.
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Old 09-24-2018, 04:38 PM   #25
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Default Re: Does DFRPG more and more resemble a super hero game to you

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It can be with an straightforward fix, templates dedicated toward 125 pt (or maybe lower) and an expansion of the monsters to give variety of opposition for lower point adventurers.
Plenty of the monsters are viable opposition for lower point adventurers, just not in the same numbers. Oddly enough, other than the total TPK, I would expect death rates to be a bit lower, high point GURPS tends towards defend or die.
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Old 09-24-2018, 05:19 PM   #26
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Default Re: Does DFRPG more and more resemble a super hero game to you

Do realize that over the past ~40 years, I've actually played in countless games, both tabletop and digital, using dozens of systems. My comments on how hack 'n' slash tends to be seen and play out – while they definitely reflect just one take on the subgenre – aren't crazy, based on made-up memories. And that one take is a pretty big deal.

I've seen more players than I can remember in more campaigns than I care to count approach the game exactly like this: "To heck with any action that isn't breaking in, sneaking around, fighting, and looting, and to heck with any goal that isn't getting better abilities and gear for doing that stuff!" Those players definitely saw all the parts of the game where fighting ordinary animals or thugs was worrisome, or affording a sword was difficult, as a senseless grind. That might not be everybody's experience, but it really is a common one.

The DFRPG is calculated to be a kind of stepping stone between that and games that do care about social and non-dungeon actions. But it leans more toward the pure hacking and slashing because it's trying to draw those gamers. GURPS already does a pretty good job of appealing to other gamers.
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Old 09-24-2018, 08:14 PM   #27
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Default Re: Does DFRPG more and more resemble a super hero game to you

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It can be with an straightforward fix, templates dedicated toward 125 pt (or maybe lower)...
I see your fix, and I don't like it.

I'm kinda tired of playing scrubs that never quite get to being "good at what they do". Even when I turned my nose up at DF*, I was still running 200-300 point campaigns, just my Players weren't playing nigh useless scrubs.



* For quite a while I considered it far to silly a game for me.
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Old 09-24-2018, 09:24 PM   #28
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Default Re: Does DFRPG more and more resemble a super hero game to you

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Originally Posted by robertsconley View Post
For every edition of D&D except for D&D 4th edition, DF RPG play at much higher power level with a broad ranges of choices both for combat and non-combat encounters. It a result of the focus on 250 points.

Even at 125 to 150 pts GURPS character function a lot like D&D 5th level characters in terms of capabilities except again for D&D 4th edition. .
All your points regarding power level, in response to my post (thanks!), look solid to me.

FWIW, though, while most of the thread looks focused on comparative power levels in D&D vs DFRPG, I was responding to what I saw as the OP's interest in character archetypes/roles:

Quote:
You have roles like Brick, Menatlist, Brawler that can filled by various templates.
Taking up archetypes/roles separately from power level, my thought was simply this:

I never thought about how DFRPG roles ("professions") map to or contrast with superhero roles (whatever these may be), so I have nothing interesting to say. I only note that DFRPG roles draw directly on classic D&D roles. So to me, the question "Does DFRPG draw on superhero archetypes?" is essentially "Have D&D and all fantasy RPGs been drawing on superhero archetypes for 40+ years?"

My answer to that is: I dunno; I never really thought about it. But to me, D&D/frpg roles seem pretty clearly rooted in mythology and modern fantasy literature; the games might certainly borrow some elements and inspirations from the superhero genre, but I don't see reason to think that character roles per se were borrowed.

That said, I suppose it could be interesting to draw comparisons. Capitalizing roles all around here: DFRPG Knights have an element of superhero Tanks. Swashbuckler and Martial Artist fill the Brawler/Scrapper archetype. While Scouts resemble... well, it's a stretch, but in effect they do with their bows what Energy Blasters do with power blasts. And so on. (Beyond that, I get fuzzy on the list of superhero archetypes.)
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Old 09-24-2018, 11:27 PM   #29
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Default Re: Does DFRPG more and more resemble a super hero game to you

Maybe its also this.

A superhero comic and sometimes a TV series or movie have the whole ensemble cast where everyone works together.


Now action and fantasy have that too. 100% something like Fast and Furious and so on.

But usually its a solo adventure with minor characters or at best a team up.

And usually its one high powered character and the rest are far, far weaker.

But to me the fight scenes and social scenes of my DFRPG game dont feel all that different from something like Avengers.


So much that if I ran a more story orientated game I could run DFRPG like the below


The Revengers

An artifact is stolen.

Your team is assembled to get it back.

You catch the thief and get the artifact

The thief wanted to be caught all along and attacks you in what you think is your home base

You fight off an army intent on attacking your home city. Complete with scenes of the Scout sniping and freaking dragons.
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Old 09-24-2018, 11:43 PM   #30
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Default Re: Does DFRPG more and more resemble a super hero game to you

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Now action and fantasy have that too.
Now? Now?!?!

You don't read the classics much do you?



I'll grant you, it's become more 'archetypal' and 'tropey' in modern fantasy/action'/cliffhanger genres, but there has always been the merry band that unites for common cause, etc, yada.
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