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Old 11-27-2021, 07:45 AM   #11
RGTraynor
 
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Default Re: Why dose my party struggle with basic thugs but not boss monsters?

Beyond all the comments above, look, man. You're the guy at the table observing. We're not. We have no idea what kind of dice luck the mooks have, whether your players visibly ratchet up their play when they face Big Bads, or what kind of gear/goodies/tricks you hand out to your NPCs.

But I do have to say that between a 300-pt master wizard Big Bad and a squad of six 50-pt mooks (where two have crossbows, two are sword and board, and two polearm users), I know which are more likely to put a serious hurting on a party.
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Old 11-27-2021, 11:17 AM   #12
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Default Re: Why dose my party struggle with basic thugs but not boss monsters?

If the situation is big boss that is the culmination of the adventure versus a random encounter, I'd add one additional hypothesis: preparation.

When the boss battle is looming, you're going to have buffs in place, your gear in hand, and select the approach and timing to maximize your advantage.

When attacked by a group of thugs or wandering monsters, you'll likely lose a few turns getting yourself ready, or be forced to do without some of what you'd have when fighting a set piece fight.
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Old 11-27-2021, 11:36 AM   #13
johndallman
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Default Re: Why dose my party struggle with basic thugs but not boss monsters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuckster View Post
I'm not sure if my players just automatically assume normal humans are less of a threat and just act carelessly, or if there's an element to how the antagonists are designed that I'm missing
Could you post some examples? A boss that they creamed, and a bunch of fodder that did them harm?
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Old 11-27-2021, 03:19 PM   #14
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Default Re: Why dose my party struggle with basic thugs but not boss monsters?

One thing I think could help make boss battles harder is to have PCs get in each other's way more often.

Like instead of meta-gaming coordination you actually make perception checks to notice what the other is doing, to avoid runnig into each other, etc
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Old 11-28-2021, 02:23 AM   #15
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Default Re: Why dose my party struggle with basic thugs but not boss monsters?

Another possibility not yet mentioned is that if multiple PCs hit a boss on the same turn, it might suffer sufficient Shock penalties that its chances of hitting on its next turn are much lower. Spellcasters, psis, & similar power-users also have a greater chance of having their Concentration disrupted by multiple hits.

Furthermore, a single boss is going to be more vulnerable to flanking, team attacks, and other tactical problems.

If low value foes are routinely smacking down your PCs, then take a look at how you're handling those combats. Not just total numbers, but inadvertent tactical advantages, like preventing PCs from teaming up to make attacks or overwhelming PC defenses.

If there actually is a problem, set up combat so that the bad guys are fighting at a tactical disadvantage. Possibly encourage the players to treat even minor fights as real threats, by asking them to make Tactics skill rolls to choose a superior position or choose attacks which will neutralize the foes' advantages.

Finally, invoke any appropriate cinematic combat rules, particularly Cannon Fodder, Melee Etiquette, & TV Action Violence.
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Old 11-28-2021, 03:37 AM   #16
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Default Re: Why dose my party struggle with basic thugs but not boss monsters?

Another possibility I haven't seen mentioned is the PCs might be saving all their one shot/once a day/once a session goodies for something "more important".

I had one group that nearly wiped because the magic user wouldn't use a spell perfectly suited to the encounter because he felt that the big badness was right around the corner and he didn't want to "waste it".

We GMs spend lots of time making sure that single powers/weapons don't become world breaking. We sometimes forget that PCs have to manage in that world and if we are overly cautious with goodies it really limits the PCs resources.

I also second real note taking. This will help you see what the group struggles with and you can either tailor those kinds of encounters, or if your an evil bastij like me you throw more of those at them till they figure it out.
The groups perception might also be leading them to making less than heroic decisions, thus giving the mooks too much credit. You will only see this with documentation.
Might also be that all your PCs are built to deal with one bad guy. and the group fight just makes them fall apart.

I also like the person that pointed out you as the GM may not be aware of how flat footed you caught the group with what you think should be a trifling encounter. Maybe this group needs to prepare to be most effective.



In one of my games, playing in a Med-Fan TL3+ world, the group has eliminated some pretty serious NPCs/Monsters but to this day nothing makes them struggle more than a big pack of hungry wolves using pack tactics. Its always dead horses, lots of wounded and not too unusually a completely incapacitated or dead NPC/PC. I have found the sweet spot to be 2 wolves per PC and one wolf per "fighting horse"/NPC, and one Pack leader that might be just a little bit special (smarter seems to be way worse than bigger/stronger).
Often enough the wolves can carve off a pack horse on NPC out gathering wood/water before any major attack even happens (usually a few nights later after a failed attempt to snag a horse or NPC out gather wood/water).

This could just as easily be a gang of thugs in a bad part of town, or kobolds in their lair, or anything that is just on the edge of dangerous at all but add in a little coordination and a drive to succeed with acceptable losses and you have a really dangerous encounter.

**Edited to add**
In the other direction that group ended up 'adopting' one particularly lucky random super low level NPC (like 60-70points in a 150+ game). This guy was able, just through some amazingly lucky die rolls, to fend off 3 wolves (who couldn't seem to get a decent die roll for love or money) for the bulk of a fight with just a dagger and his only armor was a thick cloak and some light leather pants. His shirt was shredded, his shoes were torn up, but he escaped with just a minor wound and lots of bruising.

Last edited by bocephus; 11-28-2021 at 04:01 AM.
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Old 11-28-2021, 04:16 AM   #17
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Default Re: Why dose my party struggle with basic thugs but not boss monsters?

Could applying levels of Altered Time Rate and Extra Attack help when Big Bads are ganged up on?

(Maybe there should be an Extra Defense advantage so they can tank?)
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Old 11-28-2021, 02:22 PM   #18
maximara
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Default Re: Why dose my party struggle with basic thugs but not boss monsters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw View Post
Could applying levels of Altered Time Rate and Extra Attack help when Big Bads are ganged up on?

(Maybe there should be an Extra Defense advantage so they can tank?)
How about Cinematic Combat Rules?

*Cannon Fodder: minor NPCs fail all defense rolls and collapse if any damage gets through DR.
*Flesh Wounds: ignore all but 1 HP (or FP) of damage ... at the cost of one unspent character point
*TV Action Violence: If struck by a potentially lethal attack (including a rapid-fire attack that inflicts multiple hits), the hero can choose to convert his failed defense roll into a success. This costs him 1 FP and he loses his next turn
==From Classic==
*Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy: the bad guys never hit with the first shot or burst of automatic fire
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Old 11-28-2021, 07:54 PM   #19
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Default Re: Why dose my party struggle with basic thugs but not boss monsters?

Kind of a side note, but one of the most instructive campaigns I ever ran was the 50-point fantasy game in which the PCs were what some of the 300-point adventurer types in the setting would consider "basic thugs." It started as a germ of an idea while I was playing one of those 300-point beasts in the setting (created by another member of Denver GURPS) who ran wild over the poor crime cartels around him, and thought to myself, "How does what just happened here look to those guys?" The players who participated started planning everything they did hard even in later games, taking everything into account that they could use to their advantage and nothing for granted. They rocked the 50-point game more than I ever would've anticipated, but only because they learned to work smarter, not harder, with an extreme quickness.

Last edited by Gold & Appel Inc; 11-28-2021 at 07:57 PM.
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