Has anyone done any Melee Weapon Talents?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Now, to "master" them, we buy DX. Lots of DX.

That's not a weapon master, that's a DX-monkey. It's a reasonably viable character design because there are lots of skills other than melee weapon skills covered by DX, but it still loses pretty horribly to the single-skill fighter in straight-up combat.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The problem is that melee weapons simply aren't all that distinct from another, and you can get pretty much everything you want from sword skill.

Again, you're stuck in a realistic paradigm (though even in real life, weapons were different enough that knights and soldiers would carry around several). I'm talking Dungeon Fantasy. I'm explicitly referring to things like "Flaming axes" and "Silver swords." The point is not just "axe vs sword" but "I found this flaming weapon and that silver weapon and this weapon over here shoots lightning!" If you're a swordsman, you can only use one of those weapons if they are also a sword. You're limited. Unless the GM is going to very explicitly hand you weapons that he knows will work ("Gosh, so many magic swords in this dungeon"), and an adversarial or tables-based GM certainly won't.

So, by having a wide variety of skills at your disposal, you widen your array of options every time you open a chest full of magical swag. If it turns out that the flaming weapon in there is an axe, that's great, you can handle axes. If it's a lightning kusari, that's great because you can handle kusaris. If it's an arcane javeline of eye-stabbing, then that's great, because you can handle javelins.

I'm not claiming this is a viable strategy in all genres. I'm pretty explicitly saying it's not. But DF has particulars where it matters, and those go beyond the distinction between mace and blade.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Anthony

That's not a weapon master, that's a DX-monkey. It's a reasonably viable character design because there are lots of skills other than melee weapon skills covered by DX, but it still loses pretty horribly to the single-skill fighter in straight-up combat.

Again, we're not talking about a martial arts game. We're talking about Dungeon Fantasy. Dungeon Fantasy seldom pits you against equals. You're either a group against a powerful character (who is not powerful because he has gobs of skill, but because he's a mountain of HP and has weird powers), or they throw you against gobs of weaker minions who have special tricks.

The point in DF is not to win a duel against an opponent of similar training and strategy. The point is to handle the weird, rogue-like randomness that dungeons spit up at you, both in weapon choices and in the tactics most effective against yet-another-monster-swarm.

EDIT: And it's a specific kind of DX monkey, one who has invested in a strategy of weapon-variety and rapidly switching his tactics. That's like saying a character with medicine, diagnosis, pharmacy, biology, surgery, Hazardous Materials (Biological), Electronic Ops (Medical) and Diplomacy isn't a doctor, he's an IQ monkey who's only useful because that high IQ can also let him buy fast-talk and mechanics.

Your point was that this character isn't viable in GURPS. Now you're goalpost shifting to suggest that he is viable, but he's not REALLY the character I suggest he is. A generalist can work, especially in this genre.

[namada]

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[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

You don't need skill 20 to make a feint followed by a Deceptive Attack at -6. You need the right tool for the job. A flaming axe for the blob, a mace for the skeletons, a silver sword for the werewolf. The ability to rapidly switch through weapons is valuable under these sort of circumstances.

Of course, in a case like that, a flaming sword for the blob, a light club for the skeletons, and a silver sword for the werewolf will accomplish much the same effect while only using a single skill (Broadsword). If loot is often completely randomized (in terms of the base weapon) and you can't trade it in (even at a bit of a loss) at your local magic mart for something more fitting your character, and your GM is likely to throw you up against enemies that require a variety of different weapon modifiers (that you've come across on loot during your career) to defeat, and you've managed to nab an ability or magic item that grants you Cosmic Payload (or you've hired a fearless weapon caddy), then the Master of All Weapons is possibly viable. In such a campaign I'd be tempted to allow a Very Hard skill, Melee Weapons, that simply covers all melee weapons outright. That will still allow others to specialize in one skill if desired (typically for an effective +2 relative to you), and matches the assumptions of things like DnD and Diablo much more effectively than different skills would, which would be rather appropriate for DF.


As for OP, an issue with Melee Weapon Talents is that of defaults. Once you've got your preferred skill up high enough, it's much better to continue raising it rather than try to boost anything defaulting off of it. Let's say you've got Broadsword at an impressive DX+6, for [24]. This gives you Shortsword at (IIRC) DX+4 for free. Want to boost Shortsword up to DX+5? That'll cost [4]. Want to boost Broadsword to DX+7? Also costs [4], but has the side benefit of bringing Shortsword up to DX+5 for free.
I'm kind of with Anthony here - [5] may be an appropriate cost for a Talent that covers all melee weapon skills. Toss in unarmed and maybe the various Throwing skills (Throwing, Thrown Weapon, etc) and it's probably worth no more than [10].

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Varyon

If loot is often completely randomized (in terms of the base weapon) and you can't trade it in (even at a bit of a loss) at your local magic mart for something more fitting your character, and your GM is likely to throw you up against enemies that require a variety of different weapon modifiers (that you've come across on loot during your career) to defeat, and you've managed to nab an ability or magic item that grants you Cosmic Payload (or you've hired a fearless weapon caddy),

All of which is typical of the rogue-like or diablo or many old-school D&D games, all of which have served to inspire GURPS DF. The character who just switches weapons mid-battle is really a time-honored tradition in CRPGs.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I don't recall ever seeing an equivalent situation come up in a game, though I can't say for certain that it has never come up. It requires you to (a) lose your weapon (rare), (b) not have a backup weapon, (c) be unable retrieve your normal weapon (unless it's broken, this will usually be easier than retrieving an enemy weapon), and (d) have an enemy weapon in a location you can safely reach (this is rare, because enemy bodies tend to be located in the middle of enemies, and grabbing something on the ground in the middle of a group of foes is a somewhat elaborate form of suicide).

I believe we tall that "Tuesday". XD

Okay, so not quite that frequent, but in a game where combat is not scarce, for my groups and those with whom tend to socialize is was a regular (but not frequent) occurrence. In fact, it was lucky (or boring) if such things did not happen.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

The character who just switches weapons mid-battle is really a time-honored tradition in CRPGs.

In any game where weapon-switching is common, that's because both weapons are covered by the same skill (typically just a generic level-based attack bonus).

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The thing this is missing is an understanding of GURPS mechanics. Consider a character with DX 12 and 32 points in weapon skills. If he picks a single skill to specialize in, he has a skill of 20. Pick 2 and it's skill 16. Pick 4 and it's skill 14.

Skill 20 slaughters skill 16. It's not even close. Sure, you pick up a bit of utility, but you could just use a light club with the broadsword skill and use the extra points you would have put in a secondary weapon into weapon master or striking ST and you'll do just as much damage as you'd do with the different weapon. There are games where the master of multiple weapons is a viable concept, but GURPS isn't one of them.

Hmm, or 20pts in All-weapons talent, and say 4 points in three skills. That means you have A with 1 skill at 20, or 1 character with 3 skills at 17. If you have Two-Handed Sword at 20, and I have Sword, Shield(Buckler) and Brawling or Knife, then you do NOT "slaughter me".

First, let's look at defenses:
A: Two-Handed Sword Parry of 13, -2 per parry attempt
B: Sword Parry 11, Shield Block 12, Brawling/Knife parry of 12

As soon as I pick up any shield with a DB greater than 1, I now have superior defenses to your skill 20 uber swordsman. DB 2 shield makes this better, as I can now Block better than you parry, and then parry a second attack as well as you parry a first attack. You also have no defense against ranged weapons.

Attacks:
A: 1 attack at skill 20, or 2 at skill 14. Pretty good. Unfortunately, you can't really improve this ability except through combos.
B: 1 Attack at skill 17. But 1 point for dual weapon training and I can now attack twice, once at skill 14, once at skill 15.

Versatility:
a: Can fight in CC at skill 16 or skill 12(depending on his two-handed swords reach).
B: Can fight in CC at skill 18, or skill 13.

Yes, if your low-tech combats simply involve exchanging attack rolls with defense rolls, skill 20 wins all the time. I can't imagine how boring that has to be.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Anthony

In any game where weapon-switching is common, that's because both weapons are covered by the same skill (typically just a generic level-based attack bonus).

Yes and no; first this has carried over into some of the GURPS campaigns I've played in, and while some were similar to DF, many weren't. Second, in some of those game systems (especially older or simpler games) there is no such thing as "skill". The weapon itself may have an Accuracy Modifier, so a Light Axe that scores bonus damage against the Undead may not hit as often as your really-nice-sword, but depending on the character in question it can be well worth it due to the damage bonus.

Keep in mind, I don't think anyone is saying that there aren't many games where switching weapons out is useless, just reminding you that in many it does matter. A universal Melee Weapon Talent priced at only 5 CP/Level is bad in a game where melee combat is rare, but that doesn't describe the average GURPS game I know, where each session usually has one big combat or several smaller skirmishes. There is also the issue of high skill and combat; maybe its because I am still so inexperienced in 4e, but once a character gets past 20, it seems like asking for trouble.

In the Basic Set p.286 we read about Reaction Penalties for walking around wearing armor; showing the GM a character sheet where you've got your primary weapon skill above 20, let alone near 30 has a similar effect in my experience, only its the GM and not the local villagers that are worried (well, at first). I am mostly speaking of beginner characters though; if your swordsman that was originally 150 points is now worth 500 points, Skill 30 might be tolerable, but if you wanted your Swordsman to be really skilled... well you know the drill; related Advantages, Skills, and Techniques.