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Old 11-20-2018, 10:27 AM   #11
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: Turning Undead

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Just give your priest a holy symbol enchanted with a variation of Amulet vs. all
elementals that's an Amulet vs. all undead and works as a contest of IQ.
Not sure that an IQ contest vs. a zombie will be much of a challenge. Besides, I think I prefer 'turning' as a function of damage dealt by positive/divine energies against the negative forces that animate the undead.
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Old 11-20-2018, 10:43 AM   #12
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Default Re: Turning Undead

Having an amulet versus something seems like it either requires the universe to agree with you that there is such a taxonomy that you can hook an enchantment to, or that it work with the taxonomy of the user and/or subject of the amulet.

So if as in original TFT, zombies are actually not Evil per se nor related to disease victims infected with vamirism or lycanthropy, then the universe might not cooperate with attempts to lump them all into a magic item target category such as Evil or Undead.
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Old 11-20-2018, 10:46 AM   #13
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Default Re: Turning Undead

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Having an amulet versus something seems like it either requires the universe to agree with you that there is such a taxonomy that you can hook an enchantment to, or that it work with the taxonomy of the user and/or subject of the amulet.

So if as in original TFT, zombies are actually not Evil per se nor related to disease victims infected with vamirism or lycanthropy, then the universe might not cooperate with attempts to lump them all into a magic item target category such as Evil or Undead.
You can have amulets vs humans or whatever. I've tuned this to balance by requiring your Theologian to spend actions to get it to work. I've also added a note showing that evil is defined by the religion in question. Out!, you cursed elf!

And I've reduced the range. http://www.hcobb.com/tft/new_spells.html#Magic
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Old 11-20-2018, 11:23 AM   #14
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Default Re: Turning Undead

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You can have amulets vs humans or whatever. I've tuned this to balance by requiring your Theologian to spend actions to get it to work. I've also added a note showing that evil is defined by the religion in question. Out!, you cursed elf!

And I've reduced the range. http://www.hcobb.com/tft/new_spells.html#Magic
Creating magical effects that are dependent on subjective definitions of 'evil' seems problematic.
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Old 11-20-2018, 12:04 PM   #15
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Default Re: Turning Undead

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So if as in original TFT, zombies are actually not Evil per se nor related to disease victims infected with vamirism or lycanthropy, then the universe might not cooperate with attempts to lump them all into a magic item target category such as Evil or Undead.
I agree with Skarg here... within the campaign there needs to be a uniform definition of what 'undead' actually means. 'Evil' may be too subjective. Better to have a specific power source (like negative energy) to serve as the hook for rules around anti-undead magic.
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Old 11-20-2018, 12:09 PM   #16
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Default Re: Turning Undead

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Creating magical effects that are dependent on subjective definitions of 'evil' seems problematic.
Which is why my version of the Amulet vs. Evil does nothing until it is in the hands of a wielder who has specific prejudices to apply. Will add a note that it doesn't discover hidden conditions so isn't itself an oracle.
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Old 11-20-2018, 12:41 PM   #17
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Default Re: Turning Undead

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You can have amulets vs humans or whatever. I've tuned this to balance by requiring your Theologian to spend actions to get it to work. I've also added a note showing that evil is defined by the religion in question. Out!, you cursed elf!

And I've reduced the range. http://www.hcobb.com/tft/new_spells.html#Magic
Sure, it is great and utterly appropriate if the GM/universe agrees that there really is such a thing as Evil and/or Undead that includes zombies, werewolves and vampires.

Or, the GM could decide "species" applies to any taxonomy the enchanter thinks is real, so if the enchanter's credo had it that all those things were lumped together, that could work.

But in RAW TFT such amulets work against "any one race or species – e.g.,
men, orcs, wolves, slimes, etc." and zombies are mentioned (resisted by controlling wizard IQ), but IIRC there is no one true definition for Evil, and zombies are not the same thing as lycanthropes which are not the same thing as vampires.
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Old 11-20-2018, 11:30 PM   #18
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Default Re: Turning Undead

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I think all quasi-magical powers should be modeled as spells in TFT (unless there is some compelling reason to do it otherwise), as this way you can plug the effect you want to achieve into a fully developed and play tested set of mechanics instead of making up a new set of sub-rules that run along side the standard ones.

In this case, I'd say good solutions are Avert to force them away and some sort of dissolve-enchantment effect to kill them. In principle, I don't see why Remove Thrown Spell wouldn't kill a zombie. It removes any thrown spell, and clearly without a thrown spell running zombies are just piles of bones and goop. Alternatively, you could make up a new spell specific to undead but having similar effects (presumably requiring lower IQ or ST cost because of its limited scope of use)

More generally, I think the best way to model priests is as Hero character types with one or more (but usually not much more) spells.
I 100% agree with the first paragraph and it 100% agrees with the approach I posted earlier in this thread.

The second paragraph agrees at least 50% with my previously posted approach. Maybe 100% but after this comment and Hcobb's earlier comment, I feel I need to ask a question...

How are you guys reading/handling the Avert spell? I'm getting the impression that my reading/handling of Avert differs. I see the Avert spell as pushing the target 2 hexes away. They aren't trying to run away from you for some illogical, magical reason. They are still facing you and trying to come at you but an invisible, magical "hand" pushes them back 2 hexes. Another way of describing how I read/handle it: It's like a Force Push from a Jedi in Star Wars. Therefore, it does not in any way resemble or seem like a good basis for modifying into a "Turn Undead" spell. However, my concept of "Turn Undead" is heavily influenced by old D&D (I think). IIRC, in old D&D, Turn Undead didn't actually make the undead flee from your presence. It just made the undead non-hostile or pay no attention to you. That's the way I remember playing it. Even if my memory is wrong, this is how I prefer to handle it because it's much easier to handle.

I guess I agree 50% with the third paragraph. If you want a "Holy Warrior" all you need to do is give a Hero some "holy spells". If you want a Priest with magical/divine powers, just make him a Wizard with "holy spells". Role-play both appropriately.
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Last edited by platimus; 11-20-2018 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 11-20-2018, 11:36 PM   #19
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Default Re: Turning Undead

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Or just use my Turn Undead and Release Undead spells and imbue the Amulet with those spells.
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:34 AM   #20
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Default Re: Turning Undead

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
I think all quasi-magical powers should be modeled as spells in TFT (unless there is some compelling reason to do it otherwise), as this way you can plug the effect you want to achieve into a fully developed and play tested set of mechanics instead of making up a new set of sub-rules that run along side the standard ones.

In this case, I'd say good solutions are Avert to force them away and some sort of dissolve-enchantment effect to kill them. In principle, I don't see why Remove Thrown Spell wouldn't kill a zombie. It removes any thrown spell, and clearly without a thrown spell running zombies are just piles of bones and goop. Alternatively, you could make up a new spell specific to undead but having similar effects (presumably requiring lower IQ or ST cost because of its limited scope of use)

More generally, I think the best way to model priests is as Hero character types with one or more (but usually not much more) spells.
Yeah, I generally would avoid defining a whole new class or spell system for religious spellcasters except when I really wanted that for some game setting where there's some distinction I want for them.

I quite like the reduced specialized variant of Remove Thrown spells that only undoes zombies and so could be lower IQ & ST cost and known by people trained to deal with zombie problems.


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How are you guys reading/handling the Avert spell? I'm getting the impression that my reading/handling of Avert differs. I see the Avert spell as pushing the target 2 hexes away.
We always read it as a magical (mental) compulsion, not a (physical) push.
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