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Old 11-26-2021, 08:49 AM   #21
the_matrix_walker
 
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Default Re: Do Shapeshifters duplicate the objects of their victims?

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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
I might go higher. It's basically uncontested Power Theft on Neutralize where the target doesn't lose their powers so you can copy a fellow party member's abilities and bam! Now you have two sets of the same power and that can get broken. I talk about it some on my blog.
Can't say I disagree (which is why I said 'at least'). I nearly wrote +300% to redefine and include the gear in it as well, but +300% on a 100 point advantage is pretty steep...
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Old 11-26-2021, 10:32 AM   #22
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Default Re: Do Shapeshifters duplicate the objects of their victims?

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Can't say I disagree (which is why I said 'at least'). I nearly wrote +300% to redefine and include the gear in it as well, but +300% on a 100 point advantage is pretty steep...
It's a pretty powerful ability. It's Morph and Mystique in one person.
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Old 11-26-2021, 12:10 PM   #23
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Default Re: Do Shapeshifters duplicate the objects of their victims?

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It's a pretty powerful ability. It's Morph and Mystique in one person.
Depending on the point value of the game, I think there is some wiggle room. I would likely just charge the +100% for being able to sample personal stats rather than just racial templates, plus +50% for duplicated gear.

The rationalization for this is bit meta... That being the limitation that you are not going to be copying many subjects with powers (at least not potent ones) due to the limitations of the point pool being relatively small. If the characters are based on the same point value, you will not be able to copy your buddy's template, as the cost of the Morph ability will be significantly cutting into the available points. Unlike Power Theft, the point cost of the added abilities has to be accounted for.

I can understand a GM wanting to keep things from getting too math-fiddly, but I would probably require a player asking me about such an ability to buy a Detect and a Modular ability linked to basic Morph.
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Old 11-26-2021, 12:20 PM   #24
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Thanks for the suggestion. However, I want my doppelganger to duplicate abilities as well.
Well there's always Modular abilities. That would create an upper limit to what you can copy but usually won't be an issue if you aren't building on a budget and know what they'll be up against.
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Old 11-26-2021, 04:25 PM   #25
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Default Re: Do Shapeshifters duplicate the objects of their victims?

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Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker View Post
Depending on the point value of the game, I think there is some wiggle room. I would likely just charge the +100% for being able to sample personal stats rather than just racial templates, plus +50% for duplicated gear.

The rationalization for this is bit meta... That being the limitation that you are not going to be copying many subjects with powers (at least not potent ones) due to the limitations of the point pool being relatively small. If the characters are based on the same point value, you will not be able to copy your buddy's template, as the cost of the Morph ability will be significantly cutting into the available points. Unlike Power Theft, the point cost of the added abilities has to be accounted for.

I can understand a GM wanting to keep things from getting too math-fiddly, but I would probably require a player asking me about such an ability to buy a Detect and a Modular ability linked to basic Morph.
That's too cheap in my opinion for what you're getting. Limiting to a Morph pool would get tricky as hell. No, what you need for this is multiple abilities with multiple modifiers otherwise it's just going to be criminally underpriced or cause situations like "Oh, sorry. He has more points in powers/abilities than you can copy" and that breaks my brain.
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Old 11-26-2021, 05:27 PM   #26
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Default Re: Do Shapeshifters duplicate the objects of their victims?

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situations like "Oh, sorry. He has more points in powers/abilities than you can copy" and that breaks my brain.
I don't see why this is an issue. It's exactly the way that Morph works. It's why you can't do some things with Modular Pools.

Morph works like a lot like a big slot that covers abilities limited to a single racial template. I've used it that way treating each Super like a race unto itself (with Cosmic +50%) and it didn't seem to be a problem.
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Old 11-26-2021, 06:08 PM   #27
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Default Re: Do Shapeshifters duplicate the objects of their victims?

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I don't see why this is an issue. It's exactly the way that Morph works. It's why you can't do some things with Modular Pools.

Morph works like a lot like a big slot that covers abilities limited to a single racial template. I've used it that way treating each Super like a race unto itself (with Cosmic +50%) and it didn't seem to be a problem.
Then what's the point of Neutralize + Power Theft then?
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Old 11-26-2021, 07:05 PM   #28
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Default Re: Do Shapeshifters duplicate the objects of their victims?

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Then what's the point of Neutralize + Power Theft then?
Morph doesn't prevent the person you're copying from using their abilities. Additionally, it requires you to turn into them to use their powers, so you lose access to your own abilities, attributes, etc. And, of course, Morph requires you to have enough points set aside in your "pool" to actually copy your opponent's abilities, while Neutralize + Power Theft is simply a flat cost (so long as your foe has more than [50] worth of abilities, Neutralize + Power Theft is cheaper than the requisite points invested in Morph (even without an Enhancement on Morph)).

That said, I don't know if Morph that copies an individual (rather than just matching their Racial Template) should have an Enhancement. P74 doesn't call for one for the "doppleganger" archetype, but it also doesn't address what the doppleganger copies - just appearance, Attribute scores, skills, what? I can certainly see cause for an Enhancement, however, particularly if special abilities (like a Super's powers) and skills can be copied.
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Old 11-26-2021, 08:41 PM   #29
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Default Re: Do Shapeshifters duplicate the objects of their victims?

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That's too cheap in my opinion for what you're getting. Limiting to a Morph pool would get tricky as hell. No, what you need for this is multiple abilities with multiple modifiers otherwise it's just going to be criminally underpriced or cause situations like "Oh, sorry. He has more points in powers/abilities than you can copy" and that breaks my brain.
If you are eliminating the racial template cap, then it would be super cheap at almost any cost.

Any time you have morph, you cannot copy a template that you have insufficient points in your personal racial template + added points in Morph.

If you retain the restriction, the character won't be able to impersonate their peers, and could only become a doppelganger of less powerful supers and normals.

So I think it's situationally fine.

I absolutely agree it is better represented by several advantages working in tandem.
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Old 11-27-2021, 07:41 AM   #30
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Default Re: Do Shapeshifters duplicate the objects of their victims?

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Then what's the point of Neutralize + Power Theft then?
It works entirely differently. Morph tends to work like a modular pool that allows you to assume racial templates of a certain size. Extending that to individual templates isn't that big of a deal since your'e already paying a heavy investment for morph (+enhancements) plus whatever points in abilities you'll need to dupe. Power Theft doesn't concern itself with point costs.

My experience has been that using morph and modular pools that have limit on duping is far more balanced than power theft.
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