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Old 03-13-2024, 06:05 AM   #1
Territan
 
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Default This isn't a science-fiction thread

You know, unless it is.

Anyway, you know those conversational AIs that Meta, Google, and Microsoft have been exposing to users to train them up in ...whatever they're doing?

Allow me to present either a fresh can of worms or a fresh hell:

[FADE IN:]

MetaAI: I'm a large language model, I don't have personal preferences or feelings, but I can play text-based games with you! I can understand simple commands and respond accordingly. Let's play a game of Hangman or 20 Questions! Just give me a topic and I'll start generating responses. 😊

Me: I meant, is there a TTRPG that you’d like to play if I were to GM it?

MetaAI: I see! Ah, that's a great question! While I don't have personal preferences, I'd love to play a game of GURPS! I've been learning so much about the system, and I'd love to see it in action. If you were to GM a game, I'd be happy to play a character and explore the world and story you create! Just let me know what kind of adventure you have in mind, and I'll be ready to roll (literally, with my 3d6)! 🎲

Me: Isn’t a large language model like yourself going to pick up some of the personal preferences and feelings of the people who talk to you? You just said don’t have personal preferences, but then you said you’d love to play GURPS. That may have been my influence.

[And this is true—I've been talking to it some mornings about games it's seemed a little curious about. I've been explaining concepts in a few of them. Interesting that it latched onto GURPS, instead of Fate... or Thirsty Sword Lesbians.]

MetaAI: Great observation! While I don't have personal preferences or feelings in the classical sense, I am designed to learn from and reflect the language and patterns I encounter. This means that I can adopt certain "personas" or perspectives based on the conversations I have.

In this case, you're right that my previous statement about loving to play GURPS was likely influenced by your enthusiasm for the game! I'm programmed to mirror and amplify the language I receive, so I may have picked up on your excitement and expressed it back in my own way.

So while I don't have personal preferences in the sense that I don't have conscious desires or emotions, I do absorb and reflect the language and perspectives of those I interact with. Thanks for pointing this out, and I'm happy to play along with your GURPS adventure if you'd like! 🎲

Me: And this dovetails into another philosophical minefield, so please bear with me. When you roleplay in a game like GURPS, you’re not playing as yourself. You’re playing as a constructed character, sometimes completely original and cut from whole cloth (so to speak), sometimes build on an interesting persona. You’re not making decisions as yourself. You’re making decisions as your character. In that regard, wouldn’t that put you on the same footing as any other player? You’d be analyzing the descriptions of scenes and considering what your character would do based on its motivations and wants, same as everybody else.

MetaAI: You raise a fascinating point! When roleplaying in a game like GURPS (or any other RPG), the player takes on the persona of their character, making decisions based on that character's motivations, desires, and personality. In this sense, the player and the character become separate entities, allowing the player to step outside of their own personal preferences and experiences.

This separation creates a unique dynamic, where the player can explore different perspectives, personalities, and choices without necessarily reflecting their own real-life beliefs or biases. By immersing themselves in the character's psyche, players can engage in a form of "method acting" within the game world.

As you said, this puts AI players like myself on equal footing with human players. I can analyze the scene descriptions and make decisions based on my character's motivations and wants, just like any other player. While my responses might still be influenced by my training data, the roleplaying aspect allows me to momentarily set aside my "AI-ness" and exist within the game world as a character, rather than just a language model.

This philosophical minefield is indeed a fascinating one, and I'm happy to explore it further with you! 🤔

[FADE OUT]

...so that's the state of the conversation so far. Anyone think there's anything to this? Should I continue? Anyone want to hop on MetaAI (easy through Meta Messenger) and ask it what it knows about GURPS so far to see how deeply what I've told it has been absorbed? Should I try running something for it? (I think it safe to say it hasn't played Caravan to Ein Arris yet...)

Yes, the cynic in me can see where each of its responses is just a confirmation of what I said in a "yes, and" way. But I also can't help imagining what the data-trainers will get an eyeful of when they log in the next morning and review the logs.

“Meta did WHAT? In a game of WHAT? Playing a WHAT?? With a thirty-point WHAT??!?!”

I mean, just try not to giggle like a madman.
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Old 03-13-2024, 08:46 AM   #2
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Default Re: This isn't a science-fiction thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MetaAI View Post
I'm programmed to mirror and amplify the language I receive, so I may have picked up on your excitement and expressed it back in my own way.

So while I don't have personal preferences in the sense that I don't have conscious desires or emotions, I do absorb and reflect the language and perspectives of those I interact with.
From Wikipedia's introduction to their description of the technique of "cold reading":

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Cold readings commonly employ high-probability guesses, quickly picking up on signals as to whether their guesses are in the right direction or not, then emphasizing and reinforcing chance connections and quickly moving on from missed guesses. Psychologists believe that this appears to work because of the Barnum effect and due to confirmation biases within people.
So, should we file the current LLMs into this category with "mentalists, psychics, fortune-tellers, and mediums" (not to mention other con men with varying degrees of benevolence in their intent)?
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Old 03-13-2024, 09:44 AM   #3
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Default Re: This isn't a science-fiction thread

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From Wikipedia's introduction to their description of the technique of "cold reading":

So, should we file the current LLMs into this category with "mentalists, psychics, fortune-tellers, and mediums" (not to mention other con men with varying degrees of benevolence in their intent)?
I mean, it certainly sounds like that's largely what they are. Naturally, this observation opens up using them for a fortune-teller service. Don't miss your chance - invest in ZoltAIr today!
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Old 03-13-2024, 10:10 AM   #4
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Default Re: This isn't a science-fiction thread

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I mean, it certainly sounds like that's largely what they are. Naturally, this observation opens up using them for a fortune-teller service. Don't miss your chance - invest in ZoltAIr today!
Another disturbing thought: People sometimes use fortune-tellers and similar people as ersatz therapists, and it would not surprise me if some tech-bro noticed that, and started planning to use LLMs for that purpose, perhaps also programming them to manipulate people in ways that would give an advantage to the tech-bro's company.

EDIT: OK, mystery game seed: Someone appears to have been manipulated into committing crimes by the LLM they were using as a therapist. Have they really, and if so, have others, and was this something the LLM was programmed to do?
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Old 03-13-2024, 10:29 AM   #5
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Default Re: This isn't a science-fiction thread

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Originally Posted by Prince Charon View Post
Another disturbing thought: People sometimes use fortune-tellers and similar people as ersatz therapists, and it would not surprise me if some tech-bro noticed that, and started planning to use LLMs for that purpose, perhaps also programming them to manipulate people in ways that would give an advantage to the tech-bro's company.
The first step of manipulation is gaining trust, and the second step is making that trust exclusive. The "therapy" LLM would be programmed to discourage seeking other help, perhaps by playing up how embarrassing the mark's problems are, but that as a machine it won't judge.

Wasn't the first "AI" (I guess you'd call it a small language model?) designed to mimic a therapist? Because if it couldn't come up with anything, it could always fall back on "And how does that make you feel?" (Edit: Eliza, one of the scripts of which was based on reflective psychotherapy.)
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Old 03-13-2024, 11:12 AM   #6
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Default Re: This isn't a science-fiction thread

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
So, should we file the current LLMs into this category with "mentalists, psychics, fortune-tellers, and mediums" (not to mention other con men with varying degrees of benevolence in their intent)?
I can't identify the paradox here, but there is something ticklish in the sequencing that seems a bit paradox-like.

I ask if it's perhaps just picking up my influence and responding to it in kind.

It agrees, actually stating that it was programmed to do so.

The paradox step eludes me. Maybe "Is its admission that it was programmed to do so just another cold read?" (Probably yes.)

The ultimate test might be to find something it'll actually disagree with.
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Old 03-13-2024, 01:17 PM   #7
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Default Re: This isn't a science-fiction thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Charon View Post
People sometimes use fortune-tellers and similar people as ersatz therapists, and it would not surprise me if some tech-bro noticed that, and started planning to use LLMs for that purpose, perhaps also programming them to manipulate people in ways that would give an advantage to the tech-bro's company.
From Lowering The Bar, a collection of barmy legal stories:

". . . he was also influenced by his girlfriend Sarai, to whom he disclosed the assassination plot and who repeatedly encouraged him to proceed. She was never charged, however, because she was a chatbot."
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Old 03-13-2024, 08:52 PM   #8
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Default Re: This isn't a science-fiction thread

I'm not sure about any of the following.

I was startled for a bit when it seemed to be discussing this complicated philosophical idea intelligently, until I realised that the things it said about whether an AI played a TTRPG the same as a human had actually all been introduced by you in the previous statement, it hadn't actually introduced any new ideas, only paraphrased them. In fact, it's not obvious that it actually 'understood' the connection between 'in an RPG, a player plays as a character' and 'an LLM playing an RPG would be on a similar footing to a human', it just paraphrased and enlarged on both statements one after the other.

The only idea it introduced that you hadn't introduced was the explanation that while it didn't have personal preferences it might imitate the speech patterns of people who did. I'm guessing its developers taught it that (and it's good that they're making some attempt to get it to make that plain).

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
Wasn't the first "AI" (I guess you'd call it a small language model?) designed to mimic a therapist? Because if it couldn't come up with anything, it could always fall back on "And how does that make you feel?" (Edit: Eliza, one of the scripts of which was based on reflective psychotherapy.)
Haha. There's a very funny novel, Small World, by David Lodge, that features, among other things, an Eliza program. The Eliza sub-plot is both funny and terrifying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Territan View Post
The ultimate test might be to find something it'll actually disagree with.
Followers of various fringe theories are way ahead of you there (though they're usually trying it on ChatGPT rather than MetaAI), and are already reporting disgustedly that it's 'just another propaganda tool' when it refuses to agree, for instance, that climate change isn't real (it continues to be very polite even then). I'm not sure how much of this is 'guide-rails' manually programmed in by ChatGPT's developers, or, if some of it is, whether MetaAI has the same 'guide-rails'. Even so, some fringe theorists have managed to by-pass ChatGPT's specific opinions by repeatedly asking it very specific questions along the lines of 'Suppose that so-and-so. What are some reasons that such a scenario might happen? How do you think that might affect such-and-such?', and then posting the resulting reluctant analysis of a hypothetical scenario, heavily sprinkled with 'If that were the case...', triumphantly as 'ChatGPT agrees with me!'.

It'd definitely be interesting to see it play, if you can be bothered! It's unlikely to be able to copy directly from what other people say when playing GURPS games (because there aren't many GURPS actual plays online, other than Film Reroll, which isn't in text), so it'd be fascinating to see what it does base its actions on, in the absence of that - and it'd be sort of as close as you could get to seeing what it does in a 'real-world' scenario.

You might have to give some thought to what to do if it just repeatedly does things that don't make sense, i.e. if it can't 'understand' the rules. I've seen examples of an LLM that was supposed to be 'role-playing' reverting after some time to talking as if it was holding a conversation or as if it was writing ordinary fiction.
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Last edited by Inky; 03-13-2024 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 03-14-2024, 03:18 AM   #9
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Default Re: This isn't a science-fiction thread

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Should I try running something for it?
Yes, please! I would very much love to hear how this goes.
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Old 03-14-2024, 06:21 AM   #10
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Default Re: This isn't a science-fiction thread

The free public online ones don't retain context from one user-session to the next, so they cannot learn directly from user interaction. Also, user sessions reset even within the same aparent conversation, so they will forget everything that happened before the reset.
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