Problem with Darkness spell?

[thom]

OK folks, I'm having some dificulty with adjuticating the Darkness spell as it is currently written.

"...Cloaks the area of effect in pitch darkness. A person inside the area can see out normally, but can see nothing else within the area. Those outside the area can see only darkness within. Thus, attacks out of darkness suffer no penalty, but attacks into darkness are at a penalty.

So if a wizard's warrior ally is inside a 2-hex radius darkness area, standing next to a foe, he has a -10 darkness penalty to hit the foe adjacent to him, but he could fire a crossbow through the adjacent foe's hex at another foe standing 5 hexes away outside of the darkness with no penalty at all? Say freakin' what??

How do y'all work with this? I'm tempted to say that anyone trying to trace a Line of Sight through an occupied hex in the darkness (as in the example above) suffers some kind of penalty!

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by thom

So if a wizard's warrior ally is inside a 2-hex radius darkness area, standing next to a foe, he has a -10 darkness penalty to hit the foe adjacent to him, but he could fire a crossbow through the adjacent foe's hex at another foe standing 5 hexes away outside of the darkness with no penalty at all? Say freakin' what??

I'm not sure what the problem is here. The guy who's outside is outside, and therefore brightly lit. There's nothing in the text of Darkness that says that people in the Darkness area magically do not get in the way of shots, however - all the normal combat rules apply. There's a -4 for each person in the way and if you miss by that penalty or less there's a 9- chance of hitting the wrong target (starting with the target closest to you and working outwards until you run out of targets or hit someone).

Why would that suddenly stop working just because you can't see them? That'd happen even if the guy was "standard" invisible.

EDIT: People don't "block line of sight" unless they're really frickin huge people. They get in the way, however.

[thom]

Originally Posted by Bruno

There's a -4 for each person in the way and if you miss by that penalty or less there's a 9- chance of hitting the wrong target (starting with the target closest to you and working outwards until you run out of targets or hit someone).

Heh, that's where I was leaning. Thanks Bruno!

But the PC is gonna say since he can't see the foe in the darkness area in the first place, the foe shouldn't count towards the -4 penalty!

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Why would that suddenly stop working just because you can't see them? That'd happen even if the guy was "standard" invisible.

EDIT: People don't "block line of sight" unless they're really frickin huge people. They get in the way, however.

On the other hand if this worked logically, you should be able to tell where they are pretty well by seeing their silouettes against the lit background outside the spell radius. But then you *can* see stuff in the spell radius, the spell has just turned it all perfectly black.

It's a fundamental problem with the spell description, exterior light doesn't illuminate anything in the spell radius, except the part containing eyes, is sufficiently physically nonsensical that you can't really come up with a logical interpretation.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by thom

Heh, that's where I was leaning. Thanks Bruno!

But the PC is gonna say since he can't see the foe in the darkness area in the first place, the foe shouldn't count towards the -4 penalty!

Then roll to see if it hits the obstacle he's stubbornly ignoring FIRST, THEN he gets to roll to hit.

[BaHalus]

There is a black column of darkness in the way of the shot! It is not invisibility is darkness! The light come in, but don't come out!

[thom]

LOL! No, you're right Bruno.

I'm just having the exact problem malloyd nailed so precisely in his post. My PCs are arguing that since nothing can be seen in the darkness (per the actual spell description) then there can't be (by the same definition) any obstacles to seeing outside the spell's radius.

I guess I was hoping for some "official" answer as to why the spell was written this way.

::sighs:: I'll just use Bruno's reply as my "expert" answer and hope that works. <sg>

[Fwibos]

Originally Posted by thom

LOL! No, you're right Bruno.

I'm just having the exact problem malloyd nailed so precisely in his post. My PCs are arguing that since nothing can be seen in the darkness (per the actual spell description) then there can't be (by the same definition) any obstacles to seeing outside the spell's radius.

I guess I was hoping for some "official" answer as to why the spell was written this way.

::sighs:: I'll just use Bruno's reply as my "expert" answer and hope that works. <sg>

Your players are acting like 5 year olds covering their eyes from the big monster.

Solution: Lock them in a dark room, and punch them. "Just because!" *whack* "You can't!" *whack* "see something" *whack* "doesn't mean!" "whack* "it isn't" *whack* "THERE!" *WHACK*

Seriously, you can't see the guy in front of you flailing around. But that doesn't mean he's not going to accidentally intercept your attack with his flailing. he's unseen, no insubstantial. In fact, because you can't see his flailing, the penalty may be greater.

I would assess the penalty in secret. When they shoot, if they miss by the correct margin, just say, "you hear the bolt scrape off something and skitter out of the darkness radius."

Unless you are playing a comedic game, what you can't see can harm you.

The penalty to hit is assessed because you need to account for the erratic movements of the person between you and your target. It's also easy game shorthand for "you may not hit them because cover". Just because they don't see the cover and movement doesn't make it go away.

So punch away. Punch away.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by thom

OK folks, I'm having some dificulty with adjuticating the Darkness spell as it is currently written.

"...Cloaks the area of effect in pitch darkness. A person inside the area can see out normally, but can see nothing else within the area. Those outside the area can see only darkness within. Thus, attacks out of darkness suffer no penalty, but attacks into darkness are at a penalty.

So if a wizard's warrior ally is inside a 2-hex radius darkness area, standing next to a foe, he has a -10 darkness penalty to hit the foe adjacent to him, but he could fire a crossbow through the adjacent foe's hex at another foe standing 5 hexes away outside of the darkness with no penalty at all? Say freakin' what??

How do y'all work with this? I'm tempted to say that anyone trying to trace a Line of Sight through an occupied hex in the darkness (as in the example above) suffers some kind of penalty!

Remember the Dark Swarm spell from Starcraft? It clearly says '(Ranged) Attacks Aimed At Targets Within The Area Of Effect Miss'. The GURPS version just doesn't have a ranged qualifier.

[BaHalus]

Oh ok, got it now, I skipped a detail. Yes, no vision penalties to hit, it would be like if your friend were invisible, but Not insubstantial.