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Old 09-02-2019, 09:05 PM   #21
adm
 
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Default Re: GURPS Prime Directive

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Originally Posted by doctorevilbrain View Post
Adm, you forgot about the Enterprise in Star Trek Beyond.
Good catch.
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Old 09-03-2019, 03:59 AM   #22
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Default Re: GURPS Prime Directive

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Originally Posted by adm View Post
Given that they already had a TL based on 3E, rebuilding it to 4E would have been the extra work. Within ADB's Universe, it works just fine. At this point we should likely agree to disagree, we clearly have different views, neither are necessarily wrong, although I will acknowledge that your view is better for 4E compatibility, but then so many tech assumptions in Trek are all over the place that it doesn't really play well with others.
David L. Pulver, author of both versions of GURPS Ultra Tech, provided a quick and dirty 3eTL to 4eTL conversion chart back in 2005 on these very forums:

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Originally Posted by David L Pulver View Post
Well, theoretically and very roughly:

upper half 3eTL7 = TL8
3eTL8 = 4eTL9
3eTL9 = 4eTL10 and some TL9-10^
3eTL10 = 4eTL11 and some TL10-11^
3eTL11 = 4eTL11 and some TL10-11^
3eTL12 = 4eTL11 and TL10-11^
3eTL13 = 4eTL11 and TL11^
3eTL14 = 4eTL12 and some TL11-12^
3eTL15 = 4eTL12^
3eTL16 = 4eTL12^

A few individual items drop or gain in TL.

BIO-TECH and ULTRA-TECH (both currently well under way) will give suggested but clearly optional TL values for superscience technology rather than just saying TL^ so that development chains will be obvious.
Except that is not what happened with GURPS Bio-tech as that book just went with TL^ (no related number) which IMHO is what they should have done in Ultra-Tech.

Also if a book says GURPS Fourth edition right on the cover it should not be referring back to the third edition Tech scale ala "For example, in this game’s universe, transporter technology is common at TL9, but the standard GURPS definition is TL15 (matter transmission)." As stated before there is no "TL15" in the GURPS 4e Tech Level system and GURPS 4e Ultra Tech puts matter transmission at TL10^ which as mentioned before means it could technically occur in any TL. Heck The Fly (1958) had TL7^ matter transmission.

Instead of having that statement which refers to the wrong version of GURPS have "For example, in this game’s universe, transporter technology is common at TL9 which under standard GURPS is TL9^." See how simple it is once you use the 4e Tech level system rather then trying to hold on like grim death to a GURPS tech level system effectively abandoned some 15 years ago that only keeps existing via 3e books like GURPS Atomic Horror?

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Originally Posted by adm View Post
Note: GURPS: Lensmen was a 3E work, its TL system refers to 3E TLs not 4E TLs.
GURPS: Lensmen only referred back the 3e TL system; internally it used something called Tech Stages:

"An extremely rough correlation can be forced between Tech Stages and Level. Tech Stage 0 is equivalent to Tech Level 6, and TS 1 is approximately TL7. Stages 2 and 3 could be compared to TL8, though the GURPS Tech Level does not account for allotropic iron as a power source.["

All that would be needed to change that to be comparable with 4e would be "An extremely rough correlation can be forced between Tech Stages and Level. Tech Stage 0 is equivalent to Tech Level 6 and, because the transistor wasn't invented in the Lensman universe and allotropic iron as a power source is superscience TS 1 is approximately TL(6+1)^ with Stages 2 and 3 equating to TL(6+2)^. Note there is a lot of split technology with huge leaps due to superscience. For example going from being unable to cure infantile paralysis (TL6) to full regeneration (TL6^) in on Tech Stage.

The GURPS wiki used what little existed in the book and generated a quick and dirty conversion chart between Tech Stages and 4e GURPS Tech Levels.

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Originally Posted by adm View Post
Honestly, we have no idea how the Organians work, they may have built up with a tech base, or be totally biological..
Which is exactly what the superscience category in GURPS 4e can be used for :-)

To use a very old saying that in the case of the subject matter here comes off as a very very very bad pun "It's not rocket science."

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Unless I am mistaken, Flint and the Transmutter are very likely outside of ADB's license. In 35 years of interacting in the SFU universe, and having all of the RPG supplements, they have never been referred too.
Not directly but the original SFU material directly referenced the Enterprise's five year mission but that was back in the Task Force Games days so I don't know if that part is still in the timeline due to the license.
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Old 09-03-2019, 09:08 AM   #23
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Default Re: GURPS Prime Directive

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Originally Posted by Mark Skarr View Post
Also, wow does this book need a page-number edit pass. Within 10 seconds of cracking the PDF I find numerous errors.
Mark, if you tell me what is incorrect on pagination, I'll fix it. I'm slightly dyslexic especially with numbers, so it would be easy for me to make mistakes there.
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Old 09-03-2019, 09:25 AM   #24
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Default Re: GURPS Prime Directive

First of all, I know you wanted the tech levels to be different. However, GURPS plainly says we can create our own. The SFU clearly diverged from the tech levels in GURPS 4e in the 1960s. Up until that point, I used GURPS 4e.

From TL7 to TL8, we cover the time period from 1951-about 2050. That is two tech levels for 100 years. Then we still have over 200 years of technology to cover. Tech levels 15 and 16 are what the people in the SFU think they can do and dream about doing. The rest (six tech levels for two hundred years) help define what the people in this universe can and cannot do without TL penalties. If some one from the TOS era tried to work on an Early Years ships found abandoned, the GM needs to know what sort of penalties to apply. If they find a space probe launched in the 20th century, there are penalties (-5 to be precise) to working on it.

I stand by that decision. However, nothing prevents you from ignoring it. I promise not to beam in, snatch your books (or tablets) out of your hands and tell you that you are doing it wrong. The main goal is for you to have fun. I think you can with this book.

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Old 09-03-2019, 09:33 AM   #25
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Default Re: GURPS Prime Directive

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Originally Posted by Mark Skarr View Post
Yeah, no. Same old puny phasers that aren't really qualified to heat a cup of coffee.
Let's see: Phasers can disintegrate people and things: The number of charges consumed each time a phaser is fired is equal to the setting number; e.g., Stun-1 or Kill-1 consume 1 charge, Stun-3 or Kill-3 consume 3 charges, etc. Exception: Disint consumes two charges times the setting number per shot (Disint-3 uses six charges).

Your coffee would be boiling: Heating Inanimate Objects: Phasers can be used to heat inanimate objects. This is done on the Stun-1 setting. (Repeating phasers may not be used for this purpose.) A one-foot-diameter rock would have its surface heated to about 500 Fahrenheit. The heat will last about 30 minutes, less if the wind is blowing.

Phasers can blow up: The damage is resolved as concussion damage equivalent to the number of charges remaining in the weapon times 1d.

I did try to make this mirror what was seen on TOS and was consistent with the SFU.
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Old 09-03-2019, 09:37 AM   #26
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Default Re: GURPS Prime Directive

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Originally Posted by adm View Post
Unless I am mistaken, Flint and the Transmutter are very likely outside of ADB's license. In 35 years of interacting in the SFU universe, and having all of the RPG supplements, they have never been referred too.
Since we never used them, they are now outside our contract.
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Old 09-03-2019, 09:56 AM   #27
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Default Re: GURPS Prime Directive

So you know what problems have been found and corrected. Some were apparently caused when I PDFed it from Word. The TOC error was apparently my dyslexia kicking in again. :( The Arcturians have flip-flopped from not having night vision to having it. I decided to match GURPS Federation. These have been corrected and will be accurate in the print version and PDF version when reports stop trickling in.

Jean

p. 52 Yitlians. Right justify the point level. JES 8/30/2019

p. 47 Arcturians. Add: Advantages: Night Vision 5 [5]. Change point total to 40. JES 8/30/2019

p. 46 Note that the Mynieni cost is correct here. GURPS Feds is incorrect. Advantages: Extra Arms 10 (Short, No physical
attack) [20] is correct.
10*10=100
-50%+-50% becomes -80% by the modifiers limit.
JES 8/30/2018

p. 51 Hilidarians. Put disadvantages in alphabetical order. JES 8/30/2019

p. 20 As the UFP had no hostile neighbors in the coreward direction, it began a massive program of exploration in that region in Y125. Furthermore, although most of the millions of stars within the territorial borders of the UFP had been surveyed, only a handful had received detailed exploration and study, and UFP also began more intense efforts to map out its own “internal” territories.

This could be clearer. The part from "d UFP also began more intense efforts to map out its own “internal” territories." reads awarkdly. Maybe replace "UFP also began" with "a", end the sentance with "began"

Ryan J Opel. 8/31/2019

EDITED: Furthermore, although most of the millions of stars within the territorial borders of the UFP had been surveyed, only a handful had received detailed exploration and study. Thus the UFP also began more intense efforts to map out its own “internal” territories.

+++

P. 25 Top of column 2 "As pilot characters are still limited to the standard number of points for your campaign (e.g., 125), the" seems to belong after the 3rd line in the 1st column. Right after (See Chapter 8.)

Ryan J Opel. 8/31/2019

EDIT: Somehow the text had gotten corrupted. That paragraph is fixed.

+++

P 26 The last line of the damage table bled over to page 27.

Ryan J Opel. 8/31/2019

EDITED: Fixed. An extra carriage return crept in much earlier. And it was tricky with boxed text leading off the page.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Saturday, August 31, 2019 - 03:16 am: Edit

p. 43 2nd column, 1st para, that end has an extra carriage return, splitting the sentance.

Ryan J Opel. 8/31/2019

EDITED: Fixed.

Reported elsewhere: p. 325 Correct GURPS Starships to be GURPS Spaceships. 8/31/2019 Tom Vallejos

FIXED.

+++

p. 3 Using SFB and FC for Space Combat in Table of Contents page is incorrect. Says pg 291 but should be 299. Edward Pellaeon 9/2/2019

p. 254. The reference to GURPS TL15 should be TL9^. From the SJG Forum 9/2/2019

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Old 09-03-2019, 10:21 AM   #28
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Default Re: GURPS Prime Directive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean_Sexton View Post
First of all, I know you wanted the tech levels to be different. However, GURPS plainly says we can create our own. The SFU clearly diverged from the tech levels in GURPS 4e in the 1960s. Up until that point, I used GURPS 4e.

From TL7 to TL8, we cover the time period from 1951-about 2050. That is two tech levels for 100 years. Then we still have over 200 years of technology to cover. Tech levels 15 and 16 are what the people in the SFU think they can do and dream about doing. The rest (five tech levels for two hundred years) help define what the people in this universe can and cannot do without TL penalties. If some one from the TOS era tried to work on an Early Years ships found abandoned, the GM needs to know what sort of penalties to apply. If they find a space probe launched in the 20th century, there are penalties (-5 to be precise) to working on it.
Familiarity (B159) addresses this without stretching out the TL scale. Heck, all different TLs penalties are is a special form of Familiarity.

Going back to my Newcomen vs Watt steam engine example they are both TL5 but there would be familiarity penalties going from one to the other and likely more then the -2 the Basic Set suggests.

For a more extreme real world example compare the Speaking Mutoscope aka Kinetoscope TL(5+1) with the Sound on Film method (TL6). These two things many have been both TL6 but the were radically different from one another that the familiarity penalty going from one to the other would be ridiculous.

Yet the very early sound films used some form of Kinetoscope including The Jazz Singer (1927) while the first attempt at the sound on film method, Phonofilm (1919-1929), was turned into Cinephone which was used for Steamboat Willie (1928). Kinetoscope, which had been kicking around in one form or another since 1900, quickly died after that effectively becoming a "dead end" divergent technology.

As for the time a TL covers you can have a lot of Kinetoscope like developments - useful but something better came among at that TL and the original innovation became a "dead end" divergent technology.

I should mention that per "Space Seed" TOS Earth had Hibernation Chambers (TL9) in the 1990s. Of course once warp drive became available Hibernation Chambers even though they are in the GURPS standard TL scale also became a "dead end" technology. Heck, in "The Devil In The Dark" Scotty remarks that he hadn't even seen a PXK pergium reactor in 20 years. Even Spock calls it antiquated.
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Old 09-03-2019, 10:39 AM   #29
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Default Re: GURPS Prime Directive

I just want to take a moment to thank Jean for being on the forums and listening to everyone's feedback. It ain't easy writing a GURPS book, much less one kinda-based on a tv show everyone is incredibly passionate about.

That said, I still think the phasers should be fixed to look more like Ultra-Tech blasters :-)
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Old 09-03-2019, 11:00 AM   #30
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Default Re: GURPS Prime Directive

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
My concern is they really highballed the 3e TL leaving little room for the civilizations more advanced then the Federation - the wiki entry for GURPS Prime Directive goes into a long outline regarding how to lowball Star Trek TL using what was in TOS as well as in the Worlds of the Federation book.

In 3e terms TL(6+3) to TL(7+3) with the transporter at TL14 is reasonable.

In 4e terms so much of Star Trek goes into the superrscience that one can easily put lowball it into the TL(6+3)^ to TL(7+2)^ range with the transtator being a piece of TL6^ tech (per "Piece of the Action" and Worlds of the Federation)

Also there can be a lot of improvement within a TL. One only need to look at the Newcomen engine and the improved version Watt made so see that as they are both TL5. Star Trek could have a safe-tech mindset. Sure they refine their technology but in terms of moving up the TL scale they basically set there.

GURPS tried the TL scale unique to the setting idea with GURPS Lensman. The result was to put it mildly a mess as book forgot the whole "Universal" part of GURPS and tried to (badly) use the TL penalty system on its own Tech Stage system which based on information in the book resulted in total nonsense the moment you tried to relate it back to the GURPS TL system.

Remember a GURPS book should, within reason, be able to "play nice" with other GURPS books. GURPS 3e Supers forgot that and we all know how much a botch up that was.
Yeah, but realistically, trying to make the Lensman-tech progression play nice with the traditional GURPS version isn't within reason. The underlying assumptions are just too different.
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