Generation Ships

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Sindri

Makes sense. Do you think they will go in for highly technological entertainment or more low-tech things like RPGs? I suppose they might just answer "yes".

Yes is a good answer as I expect variety to be important.
However leadership should probably encourage social games so people feel less isolated and more a part of something. Loners are more likely to do bad things then people who care about what happens to the rest of the crew.
Also easier to spot people going off there rocker if your interacting with them regularly. Though gradual changes can be subsumed and hard to spot regardless.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Sindri

You think propulsion systems will be a major focus?

In a word, yes.

While a generation ship society will have had to accept that it is in for a long journey this won't make them automaticaly adverse to the odd short cut. Think of the lure of you or at least your children reaching journey's end rather than living out their lives on a ship that is at the end of the day a disaster waiting to happen. Motive enough for running a few simulations of how you might get a bit more out of the engines?

The other reason I think that it might grab a fair bit of attention is the presence of a few generations of engineers probably including a few propulsion specialists. Research is not actualy a bad way to keep people occupied and more than a few are almost certainly going to 'go with what they know' and start looking at engine technology.

[Earther]

I don't see any generation ship ever working as planned. Just look at any cruise ship line where people are onboard for just 5 days. Still, it is fun though for a campaign setting.

[Danukian]

Originally Posted by Earther

I don't see any generation ship ever working as planned. Just look at any cruise ship line where people are onboard for just 5 days. Still, it is fun though for a campaign setting.

Most Navy warships designed are designed for an average of 2 weeks between shore leaves, in WWII, some ships with 2 years without the crew seeing land. A ship designed for a 100+yr voyage shouldn't have a major problem. Ships crew are hopefully put through a more stringent screening process than a cruise ship...

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The sheer amount of machinery you'd need even to process all the needed crops (even if you can grow all the crops) would be large.

Unless you're going to pack a century or two of toilet paper you need a paper mill. Potentially a totally different mill for fibers for cloth. Then some sort of oil plant for feedstock for even the simplest utilitarian plastics. Rubber-production too. Even some wood for replacement furniture and small items. After that you can work on food crops.

Hemp would be an excellent source of fibers for cloth, paper, or plywood. (Yes plywood or something like it would be needed.)

All of this would be very hard on any ship you could even build in orbit at TL7. We're starting to talk about the industiral capacity of at least a small nation-state rather than just a city. Especially when you talk about the machinery to re-manufacture your other machinery after it wears out in 50 years.

You're going to need higher TLs for the miniaturization.

Also, I'm not going until they can do vatflesh to provide some meat. I don't want chicken and tuna either. :)

I'm saying TL10.

It might be doable at TL 9, but TL 10 would grant more comfort and a better safety margin. And both comfort and a nice wide safety margin would be in demand.

This leads me to say that genetic engineers need to be common enough in your crew that all of the children you produce will be maximized TL10 upgrades. It'd actually be a significant incentive for going.

Give everyone all the HT-based traits you can do at TL10 (including Alcohol Tolerance and No Hangover), +2 IQ and Common Sense as well. That ought to reduce your social problems.

Eidetic Memory and +4 Mathematical Ability would change your edcuational needs (and I do assume for the better). You can even add in Musical Talent, Intuition and Versatile too.

I'd toss in Language Talent as well. After all, if anyone is going to be the first to meet aliens, it will be those who brave interstellar space. As we don't know what an ALIEN language would be like, having a pool of people who enjoy BOTH linguistic and mathematical hobbies and games will be very useful.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by mearrin69

I might have missed someone else making this point but it seems the ship itself could be programmed to control population. Maybe it keeps tabs on active population (counting embedded RFIDs or whatever) and pumps the folks food rations with birth control substances when kids aren't needed. If it could do it in a targeted way (rather than just piping it through the ventilation system) then it could even select who has kids based on genetics or something. Of course this would all be a Big Secret. A great conspiracy for people to uncover...and then sabotage and throw the whole thing off balance.

I don't see the problem with alcohol, or even stronger substances? We're talking about a generation ship, not a Navy vessel with a skeleton crew and tight shifts where everybody has to be sober 24/7. Abuse might be an issue that needs to be dealt with but casual consumption shouldn't be a big thing...until the grain harvest fails and people have to decide if they want bread or beer.
M

You'd need to be aware of what was happening to the crew as a safety matter. This is not the same as regimentation. An Open/democratic society and teaching children the values of Fairness and Awareness, as well as the need to listen to all parts of society as a major expression of both values, will give you the feedback to see where threats and problems are. This feedback, typical of Open Societies, is their great strength. It would keep a generation ship far safer than a nannybot AI.

Mind you, Nannybot AIs would still be very useful on or off a starship.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Danukian

Most Navy warships designed are designed for an average of 2 weeks between shore leaves, in WWII, some ships with 2 years without the crew seeing land. A ship designed for a 100+yr voyage shouldn't have a major problem. Ships crew are hopefully put through a more stringent screening process than a cruise ship...

Of course in order to maintain that screening process, you have to be ready to recycle those who don't pass.

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by Frost

In a word, yes.

While a generation ship society will have had to accept that it is in for a long journey this won't make them automaticaly adverse to the odd short cut. Think of the lure of you or at least your children reaching journey's end rather than living out their lives on a ship that is at the end of the day a disaster waiting to happen. Motive enough for running a few simulations of how you might get a bit more out of the engines?

The other reason I think that it might grab a fair bit of attention is the presence of a few generations of engineers probably including a few propulsion specialists. Research is not actualy a bad way to keep people occupied and more than a few are almost certainly going to 'go with what they know' and start looking at engine technology.

It's a good point that an improvement in speed could change which generation reaches the destination.

Research is also a good excuse to keep people around who are skilled at areas of science and engineering that aren't necessary for day to day life.

Originally Posted by Danukian

Most Navy warships designed are designed for an average of 2 weeks between shore leaves, in WWII, some ships with 2 years without the crew seeing land. A ship designed for a 100+yr voyage shouldn't have a major problem. Ships crew are hopefully put through a more stringent screening process than a cruise ship...

The interesting question is what sort of person do you want to screen for? Are there any ways they will be different from the sort of person who should be crewing a ship at sea?

Originally Posted by Astromancer

You'd need to be aware of what was happening to the crew as a safety matter. This is not the same as regimentation. An Open/democratic society and teaching children the values of Fairness and Awareness, as well as the need to listen to all parts of society as a major expression of both values, will give you the feedback to see where threats and problems are. This feedback, typical of Open Societies, is their great strength. It would keep a generation ship far safer than a nannybot AI.

Mind you, Nannybot AIs would still be very useful on or off a starship.

I'm not certain if Fairness is a good feature when it comes to generation ships. Fairness seems to lead to the demand that an individual be treated fairly as opposed to accepting that sometimes he has to be treated unfairly for the good of the ship.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Of course in order to maintain that screening process, you have to be ready to recycle those who don't pass.

I think the idea is that the first generation will raise the next generation to an adequate level. Note that it's easier to cope with living in a generation ship that you were born in after everything settled down.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Sindri

Well the farther they get away from Earth the harder it is to stay in communication. Also it's not like people won't be interesting in advancing things though they might focus on theoretics and engineering.

There's a problem. Doing science these days is very much dependent on the wider scientific community. News, scientific journals and the web are all important, and simply being able to discuss problems with a wide range of people is really important. Much of that tapers off as a generation ship gets further away and the data rate goes down. It may be necessary to re-invent some of the ways that earlier scientists worked, and there's no telling how those will cope with the problems of late TL8 or later.

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by johndallman

There's a problem. Doing science these days is very much dependent on the wider scientific community. News, scientific journals and the web are all important, and simply being able to discuss problems with a wide range of people is really important. Much of that tapers off as a generation ship gets further away and the data rate goes down. It may be necessary to re-invent some of the ways that earlier scientists worked, and there's no telling how those will cope with the problems of late TL8 or later.

Thus this thread. Given a highly limited population of scientists to draw upon which areas would they focus on?

I sort of supposed that they would work in the same way as scientists on earth, only slower. Speculation on how scientists on a generation ship will work is welcome too.