Dabbler + Jack of All Trades

[McAllister]

Dabbler (GURPS Power Ups 2 - Perks, p. 16)

Spoiler:  

You know a little about a set of related skills – but not
enough to have a full point in any of them. Select eight skills
(which must have defaults) that you can use at +1 to the usual
attribute default. You can trade in two choices for one at
default+2, or four choices for one at default+3. If a skill has an
unusually generous default, you can’t raise it to the level that
actual points in the skill would buy.
Example: Mr. Mack the science teacher dabbles in Biology,
Chemistry, Mathematics (Applied), and Physics, all of which
default to IQ-6. He trades his allowed eight skills at default+1
for four at default+2, and has all four skills at IQ-4.
The selected skills still count as defaults, not as studied
skills. You can’t default other skills to the improved defaults
and don’t benefit from rules that apply only to people who
“know” a skill.

Jack of All Trades (GURPS Power Ups - Talents, p. 11)

Spoiler:  

This Talent is singled out for special treatment because it
breaks most of the rules for Talents. It affects all skills you
don’t actually know but that permit a DX, IQ, HT,Will, or Per
default. Whenever you attempt such a default roll, add Jack
of All Trades to your effective level.

My question is, if my IQ is 10, I have Dabbler (Public Speaking default+3 and Writing default+3) and I have Jack of All Trades 3, can I roll against a Public Speaking or Writing default at 10 -5 +3 +3, or 11? If not, is there a reason not to, other than game balance? I realize that I can't use techniques or anything else that requires knowledge of the skill.

Keep in mind that I have no intention of bringing this to a table, except maybe a Dungeon Fantasy table full of rank munchkins. I enjoy theoretical discussion. Treat this as such.

[Christopher R. Rice]

You can't get a skill level in a defaulted skill higher than if you put points into it (excluding Talents). So they stack, but you could never reach a level higher than Attribute-1 for Easy skills, -2 for Average, -3 for Hard, or -4 for Very Hard.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

You can't get a skill level in a defaulted skill higher than if you put points into it (excluding Talents). So they stack, but you could never reach a level higher than Attribute-1 for Easy skills, -2 for Average, -3 for Hard, or -4 for Very Hard.

The other interpretation is no they don't stack, because Dabbler effectively *is* putting (fractional) points into a skill, so anything you have Dabbler in is no longer at default and hence unaffected by Jack of All Trades.

I'd probably rule that way myself, but then also think Jack of All Trades is ridiculous enough you'd have to have a pretty strange character concept for me to allow it in the first place. Perhaps whatever bizarre edge case convinced me to allow it would change my thinking.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by malloyd

The other interpretation is no they don't stack, because Dabbler effectively *is* putting (fractional) points into a skill, so anything you have Dabbler in is no longer at default and hence unaffected by Jack of All Trades.

My inclination is to not allow them to stack, but use the better of the two options. In practice, this would mean if you already have Jack of All Trades 1, then it would be pointless to take a Dabbler Perk that gave +1 to eight skill's defaults. But, a Dabbler Pert that gave a +2 to four skills would improve those four skill by an addition +1 over the +1 you already had from Jack of All Trades 1.

This made me think maybe there should be a cost reduction to the Dabbler Perk since you're not getting the full benefit out of it. But it only cost 1 point anyway, so there's not much to be done about that. So, I say you can spend the point on a Dabbler Perk if you want to, but it won't stack with Jack of All Trades.

(Which, is the same thing malloyd concluded, so I've contributed nothing.)

[Kromm]

Dabbler counts as points in the skill – just not a full point – so selecting it switches off Jack of All Trades for that skill. That said, I agree with letting the player use the higher of the two bonuses.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by McAllister

...

My question is, if my IQ is 10, I have Dabbler (Public Speaking default+3 and Writing default+3) and I have Jack of All Trades 3, can I roll against a Public Speaking or Writing default at 10 -5 +3 +3, or 11? If not, is there a reason not to, other than game balance? I realize that I can't use techniques or anything else that requires knowledge of the skill.

Keep in mind that I have no intention of bringing this to a table, except maybe a Dungeon Fantasy table full of rank munchkins. I enjoy theoretical discussion. Treat this as such.

They stack.

B173 is categorical that you do not have the full benefits of 'having' a skill until you spend "at least one point".

Dabbler is equally clear that you are improving what remain specifically default rolls. Accordingly, Dabbled skills fall within the ambit of Jack-O-T.

[McAllister]

Sounds arguments, all of them. Thanks!

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by malloyd

The other interpretation is no they don't stack, because Dabbler effectively *is* putting (fractional) points into a skill, so anything you have Dabbler in is no longer at default and hence unaffected by Jack of All Trades.

I'd probably rule that way myself, but then also think Jack of All Trades is ridiculous enough you'd have to have a pretty strange character concept for me to allow it in the first place. Perhaps whatever bizarre edge case convinced me to allow it would change my thinking.

If it was a Serious (see below) campaigne, I'd only be likely to allow it with some sort of power limitation - 'Probability Alteration, -10%' would fit it into a Psionics or Supers campaigne, for example, as all you're doing is altering probability so that you do better (or 'not as badly') when trying things you have little experience in. That's about the way I handle most such abilities in non-Cinematic or Silly campaignes that include powers.

In a genuinely Cinematic or Silly game, though, it shouldn't be a problem.