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Old 12-02-2009, 02:22 PM   #41
Kaldrin
 
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Default Re: Why does HERO do supers better?

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Originally Posted by Ravenspath View Post
In a game where a character had an arrow where he could swing from it to travel around the city. He wanted to use it to pull the bad guy off a dragon. Per the rules he couldn't do this.
Actually you can do that with the rules. It's called a power pool. You just can't do it if you don't buy it. I've had several characters who used pools of different kinds to simulate this ability to suddenly have a new use for a power. For instance my teleporter worked through a multipower pool. All the slots were various incarnations of his teleport, as well as one or two unusual twists. I also had a electrical energy user with a variable advantage on his powers. Expensive, but it allowed me to change the powers around significantly at times while still being the same power (I was 50 AP when everyone else was getting to the 70 AP levels).

So, you can do it, but it still costs you for the variability.
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Old 12-02-2009, 03:30 PM   #42
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Default Re: Why does HERO do supers better?

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Originally Posted by Kaldrin View Post
Actually you can do that with the rules. It's called a power pool. You just can't do it if you don't buy it. I've had several characters who used pools of different kinds to simulate this ability to suddenly have a new use for a power.
Yes, and to have your characters work the way virtually ever comic super ever published works, you would have to build every single character with a power pool. And yet that's not the standard assumption built into the rules; it's a special option that you have to choose and pay extra for. That's why I say that Champions is not a superhero game but a game about superpowered tactical combat.

Bill Stoddard
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Old 12-02-2009, 03:56 PM   #43
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Default Re: Why does HERO do supers better?

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Originally Posted by Kaldrin View Post
Actually you can do that with the rules. It's called a power pool. You just can't do it if you don't buy it. I've had several characters who used pools of different kinds to simulate this ability to suddenly have a new use for a power. For instance my teleporter worked through a multipower pool. All the slots were various incarnations of his teleport, as well as one or two unusual twists. I also had a electrical energy user with a variable advantage on his powers. Expensive, but it allowed me to change the powers around significantly at times while still being the same power (I was 50 AP when everyone else was getting to the 70 AP levels).

So, you can do it, but it still costs you for the variability.
I completely agree this can be done with the power pool rules. The issue was that the player had a hard time understanding it since it was a rope so why couldn't he pull someone with it rather than only swinging with it.

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Yes, and to have your characters work the way virtually ever comic super ever published works, you would have to build every single character with a power pool. And yet that's not the standard assumption built into the rules; it's a special option that you have to choose and pay extra for. That's why I say that Champions is not a superhero game but a game about superpowered tactical combat.

Bill Stoddard
In my game the players did like the non combat adventures as well as the combat ones. But I can see what you mean about the system being more about combat.
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Old 12-02-2009, 04:31 PM   #44
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Default Re: Why does HERO do supers better?

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In my game the players did like the non combat adventures as well as the combat ones. But I can see what you mean about the system being more about combat.
That's what it's optimized for. Or as one of Luce's Laws puts it, A good GM can run an enjoyable campaign with any rules system. You can drive nails with a wrench, too.

And Champions being optimized to do that is not bad if players want to play a game of "tactical superhuman combat." But if you're wanting to do the kind of stuff that supers do in the comics, it's nice to have an engine that's optimized for comic-book-like feats, rather than having them as add-ons.

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Old 12-03-2009, 12:22 AM   #45
Chris Goodwin
 
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Default Re: Why does HERO do supers better?

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Yes, and to have your characters work the way virtually ever comic super ever published works, you would have to build every single character with a power pool. And yet that's not the standard assumption built into the rules; it's a special option that you have to choose and pay extra for. That's why I say that Champions is not a superhero game but a game about superpowered tactical combat.
While I'm pretty sure it wasn't the first, Champions was one of the first (and was the most successful among the first) to include a Disadvantages system. Specifically, it allowed you to get mechanical benefit (more points) from giving your character a backstory that could actually come up in game. DNPC, Psychological Limitation, and Hunted especially aren't particularly useful from a purely tactical standpoint. Also, Champions was the first game in my experience (my experience with it beginning in 1985 -- if it matters, my GURPS experience dates to a year later, beginning with Man to Man and only petered out in about 2005) that specifically and explicitly called for experience point awards for noncombat success, and for playing to the character's Disadvantages. It was the first game I had ever played where groups I played in could regularly have entire sessions where no combat took place.

Champions 3E very strongly recommended that GMs give characters bonuses for describing maneuvers in comic book terms, especially if they were surprising or devious (things like using boot jets to kick up dust into the enemy's eyes, or shining the sunlight off of your shield into his eyes, or bouncing your attacks off of several walls). Champions 3E also recommended that characters be allowed to perform occasional power stunts with their Powers, and 5E and 6E formalized this with the Power Skill.

Since this is explicitly a thread comparing HERO and GURPS, how does GURPS do this better? For that matter, how is GURPS not a game of "generic, universal tactical combat?" in a way that HERO is a game of "superpowered tactical combat"?

(Also, this, though you and I are likely the only ones here who have access to read that.)

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
And Champions being optimized to do that is not bad if players want to play a game of "tactical superhuman combat." But if you're wanting to do the kind of stuff that supers do in the comics, it's nice to have an engine that's optimized for comic-book-like feats, rather than having them as add-ons.
Again, given the stated purpose of this thread, how is GURPS better in this respect than HERO? Given HERO's design history, it arguably was optimized for comic-book-like feats from the beginning, and additional rules for bleeding, hit locations, impairing and disabling wounds, and the like, were the add-ons.
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Old 12-03-2009, 06:20 AM   #46
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Why does HERO do supers better?

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Also, Champions was the first game in my experience (my experience with it beginning in 1985 --
My experience with Champions goes back to 1st edition, 1st printing and the staples that held the book together and it was the 1st game system I ever saw with anything like a "modern" point buy system.

The closest I'd seen before that were simple systems that allowed you to allocate attribute pts with relative freedom. The Fantasy Trip also had "Talents" that you spent IQ pts on but these were Skills as often as they were "Advantages" and many of them were quite physical to be buying with IQ pts. This incidentally is a persistent problem to this day. I've had 3.5 characters who were stupid to learn how to swim.

Anyway, Chris is right about Champions being the home office of the disadvantage and it having many features that were solely related to roleplaying and not tactical combat.
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