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Old 01-24-2017, 10:09 AM   #1
ArchonShiva
 
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Default Mind Control vs Mind Shield, legal targets

I've been building a DF bard, and pasing some powers more carefully than I had in the past.

My first surprise is that, as written, Mind Shield doesn't protect from the Mind Control advantage unless it has the Telepathic limitation, which the Bard-Song PM doesn't include.

There is some confusion on this front, however:
B70 defines it that way: "whenever you resist an advantage with the Telepathic limitation (see Chapter 6) and whenever you resist a spell listed under Communication and Empathy Spells or Mind Control Spells."
B257 supports that interpretation: "Power Modifier: Telepathic. The advantage is a psi ability within the Telepathy power. Anything that blocks
Telepathy will block it – in particular Mind Shield – but it can benefit from
Telepathy Talent. -10%." (Mind Control lists the Telepathic limitation and is listed in the Telepathy advantages).
B103 would then be an error: "or Mind Control that ignores Mind Shield"

Also, IQ 0 doesn't seem to grant immunity to Mind Control, as the Oozes from DFM2 still pay for Immunity separately. Digital Mind does stop the standard version.

Therefore, while I'm assuming you can't mind control a truck, I'm not quite sure why, rules-wise.
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Old 01-24-2017, 10:23 AM   #2
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Default Re: Mind Control vs Mind Shield, legal targets

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchonShiva View Post
Therefore, while I'm assuming you can't mind control a truck, I'm not quite sure why, rules-wise.
I don't see what you could do by mind-controlling a truck. It has IQ zero and can't do anything.

Oozes have IQ 1, not IQ 0, so that's why they get to do things and why they have Immunity to Mind Control. Molds have IQ 0, and don't, because they don't need it.
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Old 01-24-2017, 10:34 AM   #3
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Default Re: Mind Control vs Mind Shield, legal targets

Disclaimer: I am really sick today, so please forgive this quick, general answer, and ask any follow-up questions so that future, healthy me can elaborate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchonShiva View Post
My first surprise is that, as written, Mind Shield doesn't protect from the Mind Control advantage unless it has the Telepathic limitation, which the Bard-Song PM doesn't include.

There is some confusion on this front, however:
B70 defines it that way: "whenever you resist an advantage with the Telepathic limitation (see Chapter 6) and whenever you resist a spell listed under Communication and Empathy Spells or Mind Control Spells."
B257 supports that interpretation: "Power Modifier: Telepathic. The advantage is a psi ability within the Telepathy power. Anything that blocks
Telepathy will block it – in particular Mind Shield – but it can benefit from
Telepathy Talent. -10%." (Mind Control lists the Telepathic limitation and is listed in the Telepathy advantages).
B103 would then be an error: "or Mind Control that ignores Mind Shield"
You're right that there is some confusion there, and if I remember later, I'll put this in as errata. The intent was for Mind Shield works against any mental invasion, attack, or control that works like telepathy -- that is, mind-to-mind mental assault, as opposed to other trappings like an injected drug, hacking, etc. Originally, that would have all been lumped under the Telepathy PM, but later books expanded the concept of powers greatly, leaving the Basic Set phrasing as a bit of a relic.

Quote:
Also, IQ 0 doesn't seem to grant immunity to Mind Control, as the Oozes from DFM2 still pay for Immunity separately. Digital Mind does stop the standard version.
That's not correct. See "Gooey Minds and Perception" on p. 4.

Quote:
Therefore, while I'm assuming you can't mind control a truck, I'm not quite sure why, rules-wise.
Because it has no mind.

Also, in general, mental attacks target either living things or (with the Cybernetic Only limitation) digital computers/networks/etc. So if the truck is controlled by a computer, you could take it over with Mind Control (Cybernetic Only). But if it's, say, an old-school pickup truck with no such computer, then there's just nothing to take over. Even if you talked the GM into letting you buy Mind Control (Non-Computerized Vehicles) and some sort of Affliction to raise the truck's IQ to 1, it wouldn't help you, because that kind of truck has no inherent ability to drive itself, unlock its own doors, etc.; instead, you'd have to animate it using something like TK (Animation).
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Old 01-24-2017, 01:04 PM   #4
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Mind Control vs Mind Shield, legal targets

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchonShiva View Post
I've been building a DF bard, and pasing some powers more carefully than I had in the past.

My first surprise is that, as written, Mind Shield doesn't protect from the Mind Control advantage unless it has the Telepathic limitation, which the Bard-Song PM doesn't include.

There is some confusion on this front, however:
B70 defines it that way: "whenever you resist an advantage with the Telepathic limitation (see Chapter 6) and whenever you resist a spell listed under Communication and Empathy Spells or Mind Control Spells."
The Bard Song Power Modifier didn't exist when those words were written. Whether Bard Song counts as magical mind control or not is a question for the GM to decide. Mind Shield doesn't protect you from mind control drugs, or robots that insert electrodes into your brain to work it like a puppet, or other attacks represented as Mind Control that are fundamentally physical.
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Old 01-24-2017, 01:25 PM   #5
ArchonShiva
 
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Default Re: Mind Control vs Mind Shield, legal targets

General follow-up on the truck: Whether or not it accomplishes anything isn't relevant to my question, I'm just testing for a baseline - can the power be attempted on the truck? How about a golem? A talking sword? A steam-powered automaton?

There's pretty obviously a bit missing under Mind Control regarding what constitutes a legal target, making it hard to even know ewhere corner cases start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
Oozes have IQ 1, not IQ 0, so that's why they get to do things and why they have Immunity to Mind Control. Molds have IQ 0, and don't, because they don't need it.
Sorry, I parsed multiple sources and consolidated too much. Rock Mites (DFM1) have IQ 0 and Immunity to Mind Control. I understand that this is should be implied in IQ 0, and is therefore an error, right? (techincally one could claim that it does make a difference, as raising a Mold's IQ by one makes it vulnerable to mind control, whereas raising a rock mite's doesn't, but this seem a bit of a stretch, and most ways to raise IQ require IQ to start).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK View Post
Disclaimer: I am really sick today, so please forgive this quick, general answer, and ask any follow-up questions so that future, healthy me can elaborate.
Thanks for taking time to answer anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK View Post
You're right that there is some confusion there, and if I remember later, I'll put this in as errata. The intent was for Mind Shield works against any mental invasion, attack, or control that works like telepathy -- that is, mind-to-mind mental assault, as opposed to other trappings like an injected drug, hacking, etc. Originally, that would have all been lumped under the Telepathy PM, but later books expanded the concept of powers greatly, leaving the Basic Set phrasing as a bit of a relic.
Parsing your answer fails to indicate which way the errata would lean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK View Post
Because it has no mind.
Aside from the advantage's name, which is usually considered flavour in GURPS, there is no mention of the word mind, brain, soul or anything of the sort. It's basically an Affliction that adds the disadvantage Reprogrammable, which is described as "appropriate for golems, mindless undead, robots, and similar automata". The requirement for a Mind to affect comes from the Telepathy PM, which "only works on living, sentient beings such as animals or humans"

I'm not saying it should work one way or the other, I'm checking for what the official write-up should say.
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Old 01-24-2017, 01:42 PM   #6
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Mind Control vs Mind Shield, legal targets

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchonShiva View Post

Aside from the advantage's name, which is usually considered flavour in GURPS, there is no mention of the word mind, brain, soul or anything of the sort.
The existence of the "cybernetic" modifier is actually something of the sort. It means that computers are regarded as something different from living minds. And clearly the ability to make something obey is worthless without that thing having the ability to obey.
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Old 01-24-2017, 01:57 PM   #7
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Default Re: Mind Control vs Mind Shield, legal targets

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
The existence of the "cybernetic" modifier is actually something of the sort. It means that computers are regarded as something different from living minds. And clearly the ability to make something obey is worthless without that thing having the ability to obey.
I think it has survived as is for so long cause most make the same assumption.
An inamite object has no mind unless its a computer mind for example which is covered by Digital Mind. I would handle this if it came up as assigning a metatrait "No Mind" to objects which says they have IQ 0 and are immune to anything that requires a mind to work on. Mind Control, telepathy, Influence skills, etc.
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Old 01-24-2017, 02:43 PM   #8
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Default Re: Mind Control vs Mind Shield, legal targets

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchonShiva View Post
Parsing your answer fails to indicate which way the errata would lean.
Probably change "advantage with the Telepathic limitation" to "mind-affecting ability with a supernatural power-modifier"
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Old 01-24-2017, 02:50 PM   #9
Andreas
 
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Default Re: Mind Control vs Mind Shield, legal targets

The Powers book (on page 62) says that "In settings with many different supernatural powers and abilities, the GM should let Mind Shield add to IQ, Will, and Perception for the purpose of resisting any paranormal influence". It also adds a limitation for Mind Shields that only work on certain kinds of mental attacks such as only Telepathy attacks.
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Old 01-24-2017, 03:01 PM   #10
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Default Re: Mind Control vs Mind Shield, legal targets

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchonShiva View Post
Aside from the advantage's name, which is usually considered flavour in GURPS, there is no mention of the word mind, brain, soul or anything of the sort. It's basically an Affliction that adds the disadvantage Reprogrammable, which is described as "appropriate for golems, mindless undead, robots, and similar automata". The requirement for a Mind to affect comes from the Telepathy PM, which "only works on living, sentient beings such as animals or humans"
Mind Control doesn't work on beings without minds for the same reason that the Control Limb spell doesn't work on beings without limbs.
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