Mass Combat: What's up with Titans?

[cmdicely]

But then we're down to TS 1, and Light Infantry are already fairly week in the TS department. Going lower isn't fun.

OTOH, TL5 musket/rifle armed skirmishers are only TS2, F, Rec Foot troops; and TL5 musketeers are equal to TL2 bowmen, just more expensive. Slingers -- probably a better default name for my skirmish adaptation of stone age warriors than my original "Stone Age Archers", though they could be either -- as TL0, TS1 F, Rec troops and Archer Skirmishers (or "Rangers") as a TL2, TS2 F, Rec troops I think fill the hole pretty well, and are plausible and balanced.

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Think fantasy rangers. They don't have to be higher than TS 2, but they need both Fire and Recon.

Certainly, that makes sense for, say, the Dúnedain Rangers (either of the North or of Ithilien) from LotR, and I'd probably use my Skirmisher Archers as the base for them, with upgrades for Troop and Equipment Quality, as well. One could even argue that the Dúnedain, even as far as they've fallen by the War of the Ring, qualify as Super-Soldiers, though I'd probably stop short of that.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

One could even argue that the Dúnedain, even as far as they've fallen by the War of the Ring, qualify as Super-Soldiers, though I'd probably stop short of that.

Oh, I dunno about that. The Rangers of the North were certainly played up pretty heavily when they showed up in the books. I wouldn't rate the rangers of Ithilien quite that high, but there were only 30 Rangers, and people still talked about how much it would help their fight.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

OTOH, TL5 musket/rifle armed skirmishers are only TS2, F, Rec Foot troops; and TL5 musketeers are equal to TL2 bowmen, just more expensive.

As far as I can see, TL2 Bowmen are same stats as TL5 Skirmishers except the Bowmen cost more to raise and maintain.

Also, if it wasn't clear from my original post, I'd be happy with a base TS of 2 for TL1 or TL2 Rangers, as long as they get both Rec and Fire. But what would a good raise/maintain cost be? 48k$ and 10k$? Or should they cost more?

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

As far as I can see, TL2 Bowmen are same stats as TL5 Skirmishers except the Bowmen cost more to raise and maintain.

No, TL2 Bowmen are exactly the same stats as TL5 Musketeers (not Skirmishers) except that Bowmen cost more to raise and maintain; this is consistent, really, with my understanding of history where early individual firearms weren't more effective individually than bows, but they did reduce the cost to train troops and enable relatively easier mass armies.

Also, if it wasn't clear from my original post, I'd be happy with a base TS of 2 for TL1 or TL2 Rangers, as long as they get both Rec and Fire. But what would a good raise/maintain cost be? 48k$ and 10k$? Or should they cost more?

Well, clearly, I think (from the second post in the thread) that for TL2 Light Infantry + Fire (or TL2 Bowmen + Rec), $48K/$10K is right. My basis was to keep the same proportion as TL5 Musketeers + Rec to get TL5 Skirmishers, so use a +20% on raise/maintain. That's also what I did to get the TL0 Stone Age Warriors + Rec. I'd be tempted to go so far to generalize it to: where there is an in-game justification, +Rec is a +20% modifier on cost to raise and maintain (equivalent to adding Night).

[Anaraxes]

But Rangers can hunt for themselves and sleep outdoors and live off the land and stuff. What maintenance cost? :)

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

But Rangers can hunt for themselves and sleep outdoors and live off the land and stuff. What maintenance cost? :)

Give them Terrain Features.

Or invent a Self-Sufficient Feature which lowers maintenance cost as long as the unit is in a Terrain that it has expertise with.

Mass Combat needs a lot more fun and funky Features anyway.

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

But Rangers can hunt for themselves and sleep outdoors and live off the land and stuff. What maintenance cost? :)

10 rangers can live off the land. 1,000 rangers just hunted it to extinction (:

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

No, TL2 Bowmen are exactly the same stats as TL5 Musketeers (not Skirmishers) except that Bowmen cost more to raise and maintain; this is consistent, really, with my understanding of history where early individual firearms weren't more effective individually than bows, but they did reduce the cost to train troops and enable relatively easier mass armies.

TL4 musketeers. At TL5 musketeers are replaced by line infantry with more punch and the same cost.

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Oh, I dunno about that. The Rangers of the North were certainly played up pretty heavily when they showed up in the books. I wouldn't rate the rangers of Ithilien quite that high, but there were only 30 Rangers, and people still talked about how much it would help their fight.

Perhaps viz RETURN OF THE KING, the rangers would qualify as Medium Cavalry (probably with a terrain advantage)::

"A little apart the Rangers sat, silent, in an ordered company, armed with spear and bow and sword. They were clad in cloaks of dark grey, and their hoods were cast now over helm and head. Their horses were strong and of proud bearing, but rough-haired..."

They're helmed, at least some are in mail (see later description), and they're equipped with spear, bow, and shield. Moreover, these aren't any horses they happened to pick up at random:

"indeed the love that the horses of the Rangers bore for their riders was so great that they were willing to face even the terror of the Door..."

Given that the horses are being compared to those of Rohan in the above passage, this suggests they were likely trained cavalry horses.

So as far as rangers go, think "the Lone Ranger" with faithful steeds... The books aren't clear as to whether they deployed from the corsair ships as cavalry or infantry; given there's little mention of archery, they probably dismount as either high-quality bowmen or as spearmen, however; I doubt they carried both weapons when not fighting from horseback.