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Old 01-24-2022, 10:24 AM   #41
Celjabba
 
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Default Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
Keep in mind that part of the balance is that archers can position themselves so that there is minimal risk of them getting hurt.
In the OP case, unless the outpost was in the middle of a plain, there are good odds that the archer could have found a somewhat hard to reach position (on a roof, on top of a boulder, ...)
And of course, behind the other players.

If they attacked a well situated outpost with no weak spot, crewed with well-armored ennemies in such number that they can overcrowd the other players and get to the archer(s)... well, attacking was probably a mistake.
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Old 01-24-2022, 10:27 AM   #42
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Default Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.

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Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
As others have said, crossing 30 yards in a single turn is unrealistic, but crossing 15 yards toward a counter-charging foe before an archer can loose two aimed arrows is pretty reasonable. If the other PCs held back and let the NPCs charge them (A PC with patience? Heresy!), at least a second shot should have been possible. And the other PCs really should consider having their own ranged attacks. A couple of javelins make a fine addition to almost any loadout.
Having a distance attack as backup for a melee fighter is as important as having melee skills for a ranged fighter. I try always combine a melee fighter with 2 throwing hatchets or javelins if itīs a spear fighter. And a crossbow man gets a sword.

Anyway the bow, even if itīs easier to learn than in 3rd Ed itīs a weapon for a specialist, and without quick draw arrow a very hard to play role which needs the whole team work together and swallows nearly all CP you can get.

If you want a distance weapon but donīt want to put nearly all the points in this skills, use a crossbow, you will most likely have only one shot, but it does more damage than a bow and has also bodkin tips if you want. After that lay it on the ground and switch to close combat kit.
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Old 01-24-2022, 04:07 PM   #43
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Default Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.

More clarification for those that care:

Players are 160 point characters including 25 point regeneration. So I don't have a lot to work with so far.

My group was attacking a post. We started with two archers shooting before the melee charged in, I was one of the archers. When I attacked, the GM stated 30 yards away. My arrow bounced off the enemy's armor. The next round, my companions were attacking in melee range while I was stuck readying for another shot.

It's a low tech level, almost primitive with stone arrows and weapons. It's a regular bow I have as my village doesn't know jack about weaponry. So no steel arrows, no armor piercing. This is the first we have even seen armor. I have ST 13 with strongbow, but nobody in the village is stronger than a 14 for bow use, so that's the best I could get at the time. Regular bow, TH+1.

It just hasn't been fun having to attack every two rounds (skill 18, no weapon master or heroic archer yet, so I can't quick shoot effectively), and when I actually hit something that doesn't dodge, 50% of the time I don't deal any damage and the rest of the time I don't do enough damage to really matter. Our GM doesn't like changing things. He also doesn't like to allow much more beyond the basic book rules, so I'm stuck with what it is. I also can't discuss things with the GM as he's sensitive and takes everything as a criticism of his GMing ability. Thus the /rant. It's really all I can do.

Last edited by Boge; 01-24-2022 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 01-24-2022, 04:40 PM   #44
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Default Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.

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Originally Posted by Boge View Post
So no steel arrows, no armor piercing. This is the first we have even seen armor.
Okay, stone arrowheads against mail armor is naturally going to be a problem. But you say this is the first time you've seen armor? Then your arrows have been working just fine up until now, right? Then the issue wouldn't be that archery in general sucks, but that stone broadhead arrows suck against mail, which... makes sense, yeah.

What about the other archer? How has their experience been? Do either of you have other combat skills, or are you pure archery? What equipment do the melee characters have? Do they also only have stone weapons and no armor? What has their experience been?

Again, it all sounds like the problem isn't simply that archery sucks, but that you have a GM that is doing everything they can to invalidate you. Intentionally locking you out of basic equipment and letting melee fighters essentially teleport into combat are things that really need to be addressed with your GM.

EDIT: Saw your edits right after I posted. If your GM is hell-bent on invalidating you and impossible to communicate with... why are you still playing with them? No game is better than a game that makes you miserable.
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Old 01-24-2022, 04:44 PM   #45
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Default Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boge View Post
More clarification for those that care:

Players are 160 point characters including 25 point regeneration. So I don't have a lot to work with so far.

My group was attacking a post. We started with two archers shooting before the melee charged in, I was one of the archers. When I attacked, the GM stated 30 yards away. My arrow bounced off the enemy's armor. The next round, my companions were attacking in melee range while I was stuck readying for another shot.

It's a low tech level, almost primitive with stone arrows and weapons. It's a regular bow I have as my village doesn't know jack about weaponry. So no steel arrows, no armor piercing. This is the first we have even seen armor. I have ST 13 with strongbow, but nobody in the village is stronger than a 14 for bow use, so that's the best I could get at the time. Regular bow, TH+1.

It just hasn't been fun having to attack every two rounds (skill 18, no weapon master or heroic archer yet, so I can't quick shoot effectively), and when I actually hit something that doesn't dodge, 50% of the time I don't deal any damage and the rest of the time I don't do enough damage to really matter. Our GM doesn't like changing things. He also doesn't like to allow much more beyond the basic book rules, so I'm stuck with what it is.
Neolithic vs. mail armor? That honestly seems like an occasion that should have been one for archery to shine: stand back and poke at the guards to try to make them chase you into more favorable ground. Don't know who decided against holding back and shooting more, whether it was PCs or something the GM pushed...

(It's not a great setup for archery, since whacking mail with maces is probably one of your best options at that tech face-off, but you did nearly get the guy in the face on your first shot.)
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Old 01-24-2022, 04:53 PM   #46
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Default Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.

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Originally Posted by FrackingBiscuit View Post
Okay, stone arrowheads against mail armor is naturally going to be a problem. But you say this is the first time you've seen armor? Then your arrows have been working just fine up until now, right? Then the issue wouldn't be that archery in general sucks, but that stone broadhead arrows suck against mail, which... makes sense, yeah.

What about the other archer? How has their experience been? Do either of you have other combat skills, or are you pure archery? What equipment do the melee characters have? Do they also only have stone weapons and no armor? What has their experience been?

Again, it all sounds like the problem isn't simply that archery sucks, but that you have a GM that is doing everything they can to invalidate you. Intentionally locking you out of basic equipment and letting melee fighters essentially teleport into combat are things that really need to be addressed with your GM.

EDIT: Saw your edits right after I posted. If your GM is hell-bent on invalidating you and impossible to communicate with... why are you still playing with them? No game is better than a game that makes you miserable.
The animals in the area are armored with leather hides and hard shells, so no, it hasn't been effective. I'm not inexperienced with archer characters either. But this campaign is really showing me how much more weak it can be vs melee. I'm the only player character using a bow in the campaign. Most of the melee characters use axes or spears, mostly axes and the GM gives them SW+2 cutting damage, but the durability wears out. My character was taught a unique unarmed fighting style at a young age (Karate-14), but that isn't all that effective so far either. I have a spear skill of 12 which I rarely use. It's also not completely about damage, but ranged penalties as well. In this situation I was forced to aim at weak spots if I was to have any effect. But even with skill 18, I had to take time to aim. By the time I've aimed, the enemies are already dead from the multiple rapid strikes.

Some of the issues are because of the setting, a lack of decent equipment due to very low tech lvl. I'm guessing we'll eventually learn more and those options will become open to me.

The GM is my brother. The group of players are my best friends. They don't have a lot of time to hang out doing other things. They enjoy Gurps, so I join them. I have fun overall, but I'll admit some changes would make a big boost to my enjoyment. There are a million things I'd love to discuss with our GM, but he's just too busy to take any new rulings into consideration. I'm "stepping on his toes" or "undermining" him if I know some things he doesn't. So I've taken a back seat approach recently, not saying anything about any rulings or anything really. Again, I feel like there isn't a solution and I didn't expect so many people to respond trying to help find one. Thus the rant. I'm just ranting as I know I can't fix the issue.


What I've gathered from this post is that the effectiveness of archery in Gurps is very situational, and I haven't been presented with the proper situations for my character to shine. It just feels I still should be more effective with my current setup. But the ranged penalties, DR, and archery damage are just low without special advantages, techniques, etc.

Last edited by Boge; 01-24-2022 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 01-24-2022, 05:34 PM   #47
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.

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Originally Posted by Boge View Post
The animals in the area are armored with leather hides and hard shells, so no, it hasn't been effective. I'm not inexperienced with archer characters either. But this campaign is really showing me how much more weak it can be vs melee. I'm the only player character using a bow in the campaign. Most of the melee characters use axes or spears, mostly axes and the GM gives them SW+2 cutting damage, but the durability wears out. My character was taught a unique unarmed fighting style at a young age (Karate-14), but that isn't all that effective so far either. I have a spear skill of 12 which I rarely use. It's also not completely about damage, but ranged penalties as well. In this situation I was forced to aim at weak spots if I was to have any effect. But even with skill 18, I had to take time to aim. By the time I've aimed, the enemies are already dead from the multiple rapid strikes.

Some of the issues are because of the setting, a lack of decent equipment due to very low tech lvl. I'm guessing we'll eventually learn more and those options will become open to me.

The GM is my brother. The group of players are my best friends. They don't have a lot of time to hang out doing other things. They enjoy Gurps, so I join them. I have fun overall, but I'll admit some changes would make a big boost to my enjoyment. There are a million things I'd love to discuss with our GM, but he's just too busy to take any new rulings into consideration. I'm "stepping on his toes" or "undermining" him if I know some things he doesn't. So I've taken a back seat approach recently, not saying anything about any rulings or anything really. Again, I feel like there isn't a solution and I didn't expect so many people to respond trying to help find one. Thus the rant. I'm just ranting as I know I can't fix the issue.


What I've gathered from this post is that the effectiveness of archery in Gurps is very situational, and I haven't been presented with the proper situations for my character to shine. It just feels I still should be more effective with my current setup. But the ranged penalties, DR, and archery damage are just low without special advantages, techniques, etc.
If you're comparing archery to melee for damage per second, it will lose badly all the time unless you've got high-cinematic abilities...and even then you probably need to be shooting people in the eye or something while your melee counterparts don't use hit locations effectively.

This is completely reasonable by both realism and balance perspectives. Ranged weapons prior to repeating firearms just don't operate in the same timescale as melee striking. Swashbucklers run around with a sword for practical reasons, not for style points. A bow with fast draw and preferably Heroic Archer is closer than most things but it's still not going to catch up.

It's just not the right comparison to make, and if the game you're playing demands that comparison, the answer is to either push back or switch weapons.

Have your previous archers never brought this into focus? What did they have going to avoid being out-damaged?
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Old 01-24-2022, 06:07 PM   #48
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Default Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boge View Post
What I've gathered from this post is that the effectiveness of archery in Gurps is very situational, and I haven't been presented with the proper situations for my character to shine. It just feels I still should be more effective with my current setup. But the ranged penalties, DR, and archery damage are just low without special advantages, techniques, etc.
If your GM is going to constantly ignore move rates, you're dead in the water. If you can get him past that, then you can work tactics with the rest of the group. Have them hold off to draw the enemy out. Have them focus on the easy kills while you aim for an eye shot against the boss. Sneak up to a more favourable position before they engage, and get a "free" fully aimed shot off to surprise the opponents. Get some cloth and oil and send in some flaming arrows. Restring your bow to increase the strength.

There are things you can do unless your GM just shuts you down. Harmony is good, and no GM wants to be under pressure all the time, but not taking any feedback isn't helpful.
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Old 01-24-2022, 06:19 PM   #49
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Default Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.

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Have your previous archers never brought this into focus? What did they have going to avoid being out-damaged?
Off the top of my head, I had two previous archers in 4th edition. One never got much play with a bow. The other was highly cinematic (different GM) and he was quite effective. But the circumstances were different.
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Old 01-24-2022, 07:38 PM   #50
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Default Re: Archery in this game kind of sucks.

Realistically archers are only going to be useful in a battle if there are lots of them. Consider Agincourt, which is supposed to be one of the best performances of English longbowman. The English had 5000 archers shooting 60 arrows each, which amounts to 300,000 arrows. We are told that they ran out of arrows during the battle so all 300,000 were shot, and more in addition as runners retrieved some from the battlefield. French casualties during the actual fighting numbered around 4,000 and that included all the ones who were killed in hand to hand. The number who were incapacitated by arrows can't be determined but it was far less. Even if all French casualties were caused by arrows, you are looking at around 1% of the arrows being effective. In reality it was even worse than that.
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Last edited by DanHoward; 01-24-2022 at 07:42 PM.
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