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Old 12-30-2021, 04:19 AM   #21
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: should there actually be "indestructible" weapons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Force screens do not explicitly multiply their weight by area in Spaceships, it just scales DR with SM. Ultratech p191 seems to use a scaling of DR*radius, though my preferred formula is DR^2*radius.
SS force screens scale exactly the same way DR does - by SM, as you note. Each +1 to SM is +3 SSR (x3, or scales with (linear measurement)^3) to weight, +2 SSR (x2, or scales (linear measurement)^2) to surface area, and +1 SSR (x1.5, or scales with linear measurement) to DR, which indicates that, as for armor, if surface area is held constant you'd see DR scaling linearly with weight. You are correct that this isn't the way barrier screens in UT function, but I can't use those in my equation because their power requirements are complete unknowns.

Of course, looking at things again, I see the conformal force screens don't follow my equation either. There's no scaling provided, so presumably the Personal Force Screen weighs, costs, and protects the same if designed for an SM+3 vehicle as when designed for an SM-2 TekRat. Additionally, the Tactical Force Screen is indicated to cover the same sorts of things as the Personal Force Screen and grants x2.5 to DR, but has both x2.5 to power consumption and x4 to weight.

But my equation was meant more to give a ballpark figure, to demonstrate that the kind of DR the force screen of a force sword should have is enough to be functionally unbreakable against anything that won't also break the hilt (and wielder).
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Last edited by Varyon; 12-30-2021 at 06:12 AM.
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Old 12-30-2021, 07:07 AM   #22
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: should there actually be "indestructible" weapons?

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
I'm not aware of any rule text that supports that assertion.
GM assigned, GM approved is such a direct rule. The guidelines for what a GM should assign are inferred based on what qualifies for the limitations. GMs can, of course, decide that gadgets are plot protected (functionally, practically, or truly invulnerable).

Conversely, there's nothing supporting indestructible gadgets (though supers introduced full DB to allow a shield that you can't really use as cover). Furthermore, suggesting players can fiat they have indestructible accessories, especially for free (0 points), directly contradicts the rules in several places.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
"Lots of spares" would arguably mean no Gadget Limitations - because if such a device is stolen, you've still got those spares.
If it can be taken away depriving you of use for a bit <or> allowing it to be used against you, I'd allow "can be stolen." Breakable usually requires skill, inconvenient amount of time, and the right parts before you can use it again.

Stolen tends to kick in when you can't take it some place, get captured, or run against someone that can pry it out of your possession. You bypass it by recovering your gear or going off to get a new one. Often you can bypass this limitation in short order by smuggling your gear in or swiping it back.

Breakable typically happens through accumulated damage requiring you to come up with the time and/or money to fix it. It's usually not quick to resolve, but conversely this limitation doesn't require you to surrender it when entering custody nor does it allow your opponents to take and use it against you.

Quote:
I'd say without the Breakable Limitation, this means either a) the gadget somehow still functions even if destroyed, and probably repairs itself or b) there's an informal contract with the GM that the item won't be damaged, but the PC won't take advantage of this "indestructible" nature (say, by throwing it into a jet engine or wherever else a truly-indestructible item would wreck havoc).
Sure, basically like signature gear.
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Old 12-30-2021, 12:12 PM   #23
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: should there actually be "indestructible" weapons?

"I can get a new one eventually" is basically lacking the "Unique" limitation but you still need to take steps to secure it.

I think I remember in one case someone suggested if you had a "magic staff" gadget that casting the Staff spell should qualify.
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Old 01-03-2022, 10:10 AM   #24
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: should there actually be "indestructible" weapons?

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
If it can be taken away depriving you of use for a bit <or> allowing it to be used against you, I'd allow "can be stolen." Breakable usually requires skill, inconvenient amount of time, and the right parts before you can use it again.

Stolen tends to kick in when you can't take it some place, get captured, or run against someone that can pry it out of your possession. You bypass it by recovering your gear or going off to get a new one. Often you can bypass this limitation in short order by smuggling your gear in or swiping it back.

Breakable typically happens through accumulated damage requiring you to come up with the time and/or money to fix it. It's usually not quick to resolve, but conversely this limitation doesn't require you to surrender it when entering custody nor does it allow your opponents to take and use it against you.
So, what exactly did you mean by "lots of spares" for a character with a Gadget that lacks Breakable? I thought you meant the character had a lot of spare devices, so if one is broken he just pulls out another one and keeps going. If you instead meant it as lots of spare parts, such that the character can readily repair it (but can't just cobble another one together), that seems like it should still have Breakable, but at a lower discount for only disabling the Gadget essentially for the rest of the scene (it's certainly a Limitation compared to a wild Advantage)
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Old 01-03-2022, 02:46 PM   #25
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: should there actually be "indestructible" weapons?

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
seems like it should still have Breakable, but at a lower discount for only disabling the Gadget essentially for the rest of the scene (it's certainly a Limitation compared to a wild Advantage)
You're already paying points for having whatever repair skill and supplies required to repair your gadget so seems like you ought to get the usual discount for it.
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Old 01-03-2022, 07:39 PM   #26
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: should there actually be "indestructible" weapons?

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
You're already paying points for having whatever repair skill and supplies required to repair your gadget so seems like you ought to get the usual discount for it.
I was thinking the default was that it was a particularly troublesome repair, but I see that if that's the case, it gets a further -15%. I'm not sure exactly how you're meant to handle things if the gadget is outright destroyed (fails HT roll below -1xHP, or reaches -5xHP), however, nor how to price the cost (and set the weight) of the materials needed for Major Repairs (I'd be inclined to set the nominal price of the gadget at around 1% of Starting Wealth per [1] - in a TL 8 campaign, a [50] Gadget is nominally worth $10,000; for weight, probably go simple - repair materials worth 100% of the item's price weigh the same as the item).
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Old 01-03-2022, 07:55 PM   #27
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: should there actually be "indestructible" weapons?

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I was thinking the default was that it was a particularly troublesome repair, but I see that if that's the case, it gets a further -15%
..
nor how to price the cost (and set the weight) of the materials needed for Major Repairs (I'd be inclined to set the nominal price of the gadget at around 1% of Starting Wealth per [1] - in a TL 8 campaign, a [50] Gadget is nominally worth $10,000; for weight, probably go simple - repair materials worth 100% of the item's price weigh the same as the item).
The only guideline I've seen for repairs for Gadgets might be Kromm's talking about magical repairs...

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
The reparable/not reparable decision rests on the question of whether the gadget, if reduced to the point where it no longer functions as a gadget, can be restored to its former capabilities.

In this case, once a magic staff is broken to the point where it no longer functions as a quarterstaff, the Staff spell ends.

However, Staff is a cheap spell, so I would argue that casting Repair and then recasting Staff would qualify as "making repairs" in a magical world.

The real question here isn't about the Staff spell but about other things stuck on the staff as advantages; e.g., Energy Reserve.

If physical repairs and/or Repair, followed by recasting Staff, would restore those, then I think the gadget rates as reparable. Otherwise, it doesn't.
We know there are equivalent monetary values for enchanted items (M20: $33 per energy, so $660 for a 20-energy spell like Staff) as for Repair you could prob just use the staff's original cost.

This approach doesn't really seem to scale up with the value of advantages though... same requirement to restore ER 10 w/ Gadget limitations (staff) as it is to repair a staff that hosts ER 100.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
I'm not sure exactly how you're meant to handle things if the gadget is outright destroyed (fails HT roll below -1xHP, or reaches -5xHP), however
Yeah that doesn't get touched on either, like what if you can't retrieve the piece of your broken staff to do a repair and need to enchant a new staff w/ Enchant?

What extra steps should be taken to translate your old Energy Reserve advantage to this new host gadget?
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Old 01-03-2022, 08:35 PM   #28
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: should there actually be "indestructible" weapons?

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Yeah that doesn't get touched on either, like what if you can't retrieve the piece of your broken staff to do a repair and need to enchant a new staff w/ Enchant?

What extra steps should be taken to translate your old Energy Reserve advantage to this new host gadget?
Outside of magic, I could see cause to say repairing a destroyed Gadget requires 100% of the nominal worth in supplies and is at -5 to skill (as opposed to Major Repairs, which average 35% of the nominal worth and are at -2). That's largely off the top of my head, however.
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Old 01-04-2022, 07:18 AM   #29
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: should there actually be "indestructible" weapons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
So, what exactly did you mean by "lots of spares" for a character with a Gadget that lacks Breakable?
Actually the example in question was Corsair from Super Scum, who used easily replaced super swords (minimal gadget limitations).

Quote:
I thought you meant the character had a lot of spare devices, so if one is broken he just pulls out another one and keeps going.
That sounds more like a -5% nuisance, and presumably it can't be used against you. Otherwise you'll need to explain why there aren't a mass amount of copies running around.

Quote:
If you instead meant it as lots of spare parts, such that the character can readily repair it (but can't just cobble another one together), that seems like it should still have Breakable, but at a lower discount for only disabling the Gadget essentially for the rest of the scene (it's certainly a Limitation compared to a wild Advantage)
I'd call it half the value of breakable if you have to go back to your base to fix but the time is inconsequential. If you can fix it between scenes, I'd say it's worth a quarter usual breakable value. I'd also allow the same if it was entirely broken since breakable items are intended to be replaceable and you're effectively lowering the limitation by removing the time and then location elements.
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Old 01-04-2022, 08:51 AM   #30
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: should there actually be "indestructible" weapons?

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
That sounds more like a -5% nuisance, and presumably it can't be used against you. Otherwise you'll need to explain why there aren't a mass amount of copies running around.
Well, that's why I said
Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
"Lots of spares" would arguably mean no Gadget Limitations - because if such a device is stolen, you've still got those spares.
Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
I'd call it half the value of breakable if you have to go back to your base to fix but the time is inconsequential. If you can fix it between scenes, I'd say it's worth a quarter usual breakable value. I'd also allow the same if it was entirely broken since breakable items are intended to be replaceable and you're effectively lowering the limitation by removing the time and then location elements.
That sounds fair, if we're assuming the character can just skip the checks, time, and materials needed for repairs normally. Of course, depending on how expensive the modified ability is, it's entirely possible that taking the full Breakable discount will get you enough points to be able to have the skills required to do extremely rapid repairs with improvised materials.
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