Flexibility

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by MatthewVilter

On top of that it gives you ...other... bonuses. What is going on here?

I was going to field this one, but I'ma just point to this:

Originally Posted by Stone Dog

Good flexibility isn't just being able to twist yourself into odd positions and strange angles. It is also the ability to use your strength more effectively in those positions.

Mmm, climbers. :]

[Edges]

The good lord saw fit to bless me with strength and Flexibility and I've been an exceptional climber since I was 3 because of it.

Should Flexibility add to Climbing? Yes.

[The Benj]

Being flexible should certainly benefit your climbing ability, but +3 is awfully good for 5 points. That it also covers two more skills AND reduces penalties for other stuff just adds to that. I'd suggest either changing it to reducing penalties for everything (which will sometimes amount to the same thing, but means you have to be doing something fancy to benefit) or dropping it to +1. +1 to 3 skills and reducing cramped space penalties by 3 is still pretty good for 5 points.

[Edges]

Originally Posted by The Benj

Being flexible should certainly benefit your climbing ability, but +3 is awfully good for 5 points. That it also covers two more skills AND reduces penalties for other stuff just adds to that. I'd suggest either changing it to reducing penalties for everything (which will sometimes amount to the same thing, but means you have to be doing something fancy to benefit) or dropping it to +1. +1 to 3 skills and reducing cramped space penalties by 3 is still pretty good for 5 points.

I agree. Hence my house rule above.

[MatthewVilter]

Thank you for all the replies!

I don't know about flexible people automatically being able to retain strength while contorted...

Originally Posted by TNorthover

The ability to stand up from a foot somewhere around shoulder level, most obviously.

But this does help me visualize a flexible person climbing faster/easier then an inflexible one.

As for the point cost, I do like the idea of Flexibility only canceling penalties. Let's look at how that would work.

Escape: Modern handcuffs give you -5 so Flexibility helps in that case and the fact that dislocating your limb (B192) halves the penalty for secure bonds means that course of action has anti-synergy with Flexibility which that makes sense to me. OTOH I don't think I like the rules for Escape much. -5 for handcuffs seems low to me and if you can slip cuffs I would think you could do it in less then a minute. Moreover if your bonds are not "particularly secure" dislocating your limb won't help you with the RAW but needing to do that seems more tied to your relative ability to succeed then the absolute difficulty of the bounds to me.

Erotic Art: This skill is left pretty abstract so I think I would just say that in any situation where an odd position would be called for you get -x for it being hard and +x for it being so hot. Yeah I think that works okay.

Break free: I would say Flexibility just cancels the bonus your foe gets for using two hands or for pining you (B371). In that case Flexibility would only not help in a non-pin, one handed grapple. Seems okay to me.

Climbing: As long as the GM can keep clear in his head/notes what penalties are for how slippery or vertical a surface is and what penalties are for hand/foot holds being far apart this might work okay.

Any thoughts?

[The Benj]

Originally Posted by MatthewVilter

Thank you for all the replies!

I don't know about flexible people automatically being able to retain strength while contorted...

But this does help me visualize a flexible person climbing faster/easier then an inflexible one.

As for the point cost, I do like the idea of Flexibility only canceling penalties. Let's look at how that would work.

Escape: Modern handcuffs give you -5 so Flexibility helps in that case and the fact that dislocating your limb (B192) halves the penalty for secure bonds means that course of action has anti-synergy with Flexibility which that makes sense to me.

This raises the question of whether you'd halve the -5 to -3 then reduce it by 3 (to 0) or reduce it to -2 then halve it to -1. Either seems fine, although I'm inclined to err on the side of the former.

OTOH I don't think I like the rules for Escape much. -5 for handcuffs seems low to me

Low as in not a big enough penalty or low as in your chances will be too low?

...and if you can slip cuffs I would think you could do it in less then a minute.

That's what taking a penalty in order to do things faster is for. You could take a total of -14 (not taking Flexible or dislocation into account) in order to escape in 6 seconds if you want.

Erotic Art: This skill is left pretty abstract so I think I would just say that in any situation where an odd position would be called for you get -x for it being hard and +x for it being so hot. Yeah I think that works okay.

Yeah, penalties aren't something that are... uh... fully explored in the write-up for the skill. I'll confess to mostly handwaving this one.

Break free: I would say Flexibility just cancels the bonus your foe gets for using two hands or for pining you (B371). In that case Flexibility would only not help in a non-pin, one handed grapple. Seems okay to me.

Yeah, that sounds alright to me too. If someone's just got a hand on you, being able to twist in funny ways isn't going to be nearly the boon that it would be when they were relying on the extra control of a two-handed grip and you suddenly rotate your arm in a way you shouldn't be able to.

Climbing: As long as the GM can keep clear in his head/notes what penalties are for how slippery or vertical a surface is and what penalties are for hand/foot holds being far apart this might work okay.

Slippery, sure, but being bendy is also useful for keeping your centre of gravity close to the surface while you maneuver.

[MatthewVilter]

Originally Posted by The Benj

This raises the question of whether you'd halve the -5 to -3 then reduce it by 3 (to 0) or reduce it to -2 then halve it to -1. Either seems fine, although I'm inclined to err on the side of the former.

Yeah I don't know... The former is nicer for the players so I guess I'd go with that.

Originally Posted by The Benj

Low as in not a big enough penalty or low as in your chances will be too low?

That was not clear at all was it? ;) I think the penalty should be bigger. OTOH I don't know much about handcuff performance IRL and I know gurps is known for good research...

Originally Posted by The Benj

That's what taking a penalty in order to do things faster is for. You could take a total of -14 (not taking Flexible or dislocation into account) in order to escape in 6 seconds if you want.

See that sounds more like it to me, out in 6 seconds at -14. But I don't see how more time is going to help.

Originally Posted by The Benj

Slippery, sure, but being bendy is also useful for keeping your centre of gravity close to the surface while you maneuver.

Good point.

[Celti]

Originally Posted by MatthewVilter

See that sounds more like it to me, out in 6 seconds at -14. But I don't see how more time is going to help.

I know that personally, when I've tried slipping out of cuffs, it can take me a few minutes depending on how tight they are — time mostly spend slowly working the cuffs up a little, then I shift my hand and work them up on the other side, rinse, repeat. Extra time helps.

Also keep in mind that most people aren't going to have Escape skill, and so will be working at default: an effective skill of 4 for the average citizen. Then that -5 makes it impossible to slip free.

[MatthewVilter]

Originally Posted by Celti

I know that personally, when I've tried slipping out of cuffs, it can take me a few minutes depending on how tight they are — time mostly spend slowly working the cuffs up a little, then I shift my hand and work them up on the other side, rinse, repeat. Extra time helps.

Okay I'm willing to go with that. Question: Does it help if the cuffs are in front of your body? In gurps how do you pull cuffs past your feet? Is it automatic for most people?

Originally Posted by Celti

Also keep in mind that most people aren't going to have Escape skill, and so will be working at default: an effective skill of 4 for the average citizen. Then that -5 makes it impossible to slip free.

I keep forgetting that 1 skill point is like 200+ hours of practice. :)

[Celti]

Originally Posted by MatthewVilter

Okay I'm willing to go with that. Question: Does it help if the cuffs are in front of your body? In gurps how do you pull cuffs past your feet? Is it automatic for most people?

I can hardly do a thing when the cuffs are behind me.

As for how, if someone wanted to do that, but not escape, I might make it an unmodified Escape roll. If someone was trying to slip their cuffs, I'd not bother making them roll twice, though, and just assume it's part of the action. And if they wanted to keep the cuffs behind them, to slip out in secret, well that's what penalties for working blind are for.