Why would magically animated undead like zombies be turned by a holy cleric?

[nik1979]

Originally Posted by b-dog

I am just sort of wondering why magically animated undead like zombies would be turned by a holy cleric. It would seem to me that the process of creatig a zombie would not not be dependent on moral forces and it could be animated as an automaton just as a wizard could animate a suit of armor. The magic spell would just provide the energy to move this zombie around. Is there more to the spell than this? Does the spell invoke the soul of the deceased to some degree? Or are their darker forces that the necromancer taps into? Just curious, thanks.

Blasphemy!!! :))

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by b-dog

OK, thanks for the help. I just want to get something clear, the spell Zombie places a spirit inside of a corpse? Is this correct? Thanks.

Animation specifically says a summoned spirit is used by the spell, which produces very similar results all things considered. .

Zombie does not state this explicitly, but summon Spirit and Lend Vitality are it's prerequisites. That the process of working the Zombie spell involves bringing in a spriti and giving it life force can be deduced by their prerequisite statuses. Concluding that a Zombie has a summoned spirit infused into the dead body is a pretty easy step from there.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

Just because Summon Spirit is a prerequisite, doesn't mean that a spirit is used to animate the corps. I'd say that's up to the GM.

And just because create fire and shape fire are prerequisites for fireball doesn't mean a spell that produces magical fueless fire and another spell shapes and moves it doesn't mean that Fireball, a spell which produces a magical fire in sphere shape that moves has anything in common with it's prerequisite spells. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

And just because create fire and shape fire are prerequisites .

Woah, there big fella. Just put down that Club of +5 Sarcasm before someone gets hurt. But I would change the prerequisites for Create Zombie if I visualized it as having some other mechanism.

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

Animation specifically says a summoned spirit is used by the spell, which produces very similar results all things considered. .

Zombie does not state this explicitly, but summon Spirit and Lend Vitality are it's prerequisites. That the process of working the Zombie spell involves bringing in a spriti and giving it life force can be deduced by their prerequisite statuses. Concluding that a Zombie has a summoned spirit infused into the dead body is a pretty easy step from there.

I disagree. That cannot be deduced by RAW. If that was what they meant, it should have been included in the text. As it is now, that is for the GM to decide.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

I disagree. That cannot be deduced by RAW. If that was what they meant, it should have been included in the text. As it is now, that is for the GM to decide.

You want to master the invisibility spell you have to master a lot of light spells and specifically learn Blur. Give your Simple Illusion the ability to make noise and you must learn the Sounds spells before you can learn it.

Breathe Water? Create Air, Destroy Water. The prereq chains in Magic are consistently functional wrt the spell being learned. To exempt that in this case when the connection between summoning a spirit, providing life energy and getting a corpse that functions without needing constant concentration and a maintained spell is pretty clear and one wonders what other prerequisites should not bear any relation to the learned spell. Blackout as a prerequisite for Sound Jet?

Don't think it'll fly.

Now a GM can disregard that connection between what the prerequisites for Zombie do and what Zombie does itself, but to claim there is nothing connecting spell function to spell function is going to be a much greater stretch than the steps I've outlined above.

And the OP's stated purpose for this thread was to learn of a plausible reason for Divine Powered characters having power over Arcane created undead.

[Anders]

IITR (It's In The Rules)

[Jerander]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

And just because create fire and shape fire are prerequisites for fireball doesn't mean a spell that produces magical fueless fire and another spell shapes and moves it doesn't mean that Fireball, a spell which produces a magical fire in sphere shape that moves has anything in common with it's prerequisite spells. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Though, technically, the Fireball spell does *not* produce "a magical fire in sphere shape." The the FAQ:

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/faq/FAQ4-4.html#SS4.3.1

So a Zombie spell that doesn't actually summon a spirit seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Jerander.

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

You want to master the invisibility spell you have to master a lot of light spells and specifically learn Blur. Give your Simple Illusion the ability to make noise and you must learn the Sounds spells before you can learn it.

Breathe Water? Create Air, Destroy Water. The prereq chains in Magic are consistently functional wrt the spell being learned. To exempt that in this case when the connection between summoning a spirit, providing life energy and getting a corpse that functions without needing constant concentration and a maintained spell is pretty clear and one wonders what other prerequisites should not bear any relation to the learned spell. Blackout as a prerequisite for Sound Jet?

Don't think it'll fly.

Now a GM can disregard that connection between what the prerequisites for Zombie do and what Zombie does itself, but to claim there is nothing connecting spell function to spell function is going to be a much greater stretch than the steps I've outlined above.

And the OP's stated purpose for this thread was to learn of a plausible reason for Divine Powered characters having power over Arcane created undead.

I'm not saying they are not related. Obviously the two spells are related. But as I read prerequisites, they are not as closely related as you think they are. Or at least they don't have to be.

[sardook]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

Animation specifically says a summoned spirit is used by the spell, which produces very similar results all things considered. .

Zombie does not state this explicitly, but summon Spirit and Lend Vitality are it's prerequisites. That the process of working the Zombie spell involves bringing in a spriti and giving it life force can be deduced by their prerequisite statuses. Concluding that a Zombie has a summoned spirit infused into the dead body is a pretty easy step from there.

You could also argue that while a spirit is involved in the zombie making process, it is not tied to the body. The spirit just gives the body a jump start and the bodies original automatic functions take over. Once that is done the spirit can wonder off and do what ever.