Report To The Stakeholders

[csm]

(Moved from the DFRPG thread to here as it's more appropriate)

Hey all,

I think one of the biggest reasons GURPS isn't getting the recognition it needs is because it has been essentially out-of-print for a while now. It's not easy to get many of the hardcover books (save for the new POD versions). I picked up my previous GURPS books at Barnes and Noble. Now I'd be hard pressed to pick up anything that wasn't D&D 5E or Shadowrun. The only way that I knew about the new hardcovers is because I've been paying attention. My FLGS hasn't ordered the new hardbacks at all (and sadly I've been out of work so I'm not able to pay for them ATM).

Unfortunately it creates a downward spiral where it's easier for me to start up a not-GURPS game than it is to get a GURPS game going. I think the years of being frugal with GURPS and keeping the support PDF-only have come to roost. Only those who had exposure to it before are still keeping things going.

I'd love to say there's an easy fix, and that throwing money at it with new books will solve everything. Maybe the license for GURPS needs tweaking so third-party publishers can publish material for GURPS without having to get strict approval? I don't know. All I know is I'm guilty of straying to other systems (Fate and GUMSHOE in particular) because I feel like I can do more with the systems. That's in no small part to the availability of the products and the CC-BY license.

I keep 3d6 on my desk as a reminder of where I came from. But there's also 4DF on my desk that point to where I currently am. Here's hoping that the 3d6 doesn't become 2d6 for Dungeon World.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by seycyrus

I'm not sure whether you are agreeing with my implied point, or trying to counter it. But I read through that thread and from what I saw I unable to determine whether or not it can be considered a success.

Regardless of that, the "G" and the "U" and "S" of GURPS are certainly not captured by what looks to be a specialized niche environment.

I wasn't aware that you had an implied point. Your question was "Is there a reason why SJG isn't trying to join the world of virtual table top gaming?" I pointed you at a thread that showed that Steve Jackson Games already has joined "the world of virtual table top gaming".

In reply, you've mentioned GURPS - which is only one line in the selection of roleplaying games published by Steve Jackson Games. In Nomine is a completely different tabletop roleplaying game published by Steve Jackson Games, having very little to do with GURPS - judging one game on the merits of the other hardly seems fair to me.

[hectorgrey]

Just as a note, if there were a premium GURPS ruleset for Fantasy Grounds, I would happily pay for it (provided, of course, that the price was in line with the PDF products) - hell, maybe something akin to how D&D is currently supported: a free ruleset with GURPS Lite built in, and additional modules for sale. I mean, the amount of automation that Fantasy Grounds is able to allow would greatly reduce the amount by which the more realistic options end up slowing down combat.

That said, the current free one is still useful; just involves a lot more work to get ready for play.

[Polydamas]

I will third the comment about not having heard much about Mars Attacks and Discworld. My memory (and memories are not facts, but marketers have to deal with perception not reality) was one short post on a SJGames website which sounded petulant: "X and Y have now been released" or something like that. If I were a random fan of the settings, I would not have heard of them at all.

Originally Posted by philreed

That's clearly a failure on our part. We _thought_ we had spread word of the two books -- including during the Dungeon Fantasy Kickstarter project -- but something must have gone wrong.

Where do you most often learn of new games and expansions?

KARTAS podcast, Knights of the Dinner Table, Gaming Balistic, random web surfing.

I would like to help beyond reviewing products, but the basic problems are that I don't have gaming friends in the new country, and I am poor and short on space. I also don't find that consumerism helps me enjoy tabletop roleplaying, although I bought GURPS books as long as they were in print. I noticed that almost all of the d20 and 2e AD&D and 3e GURPS books I bought never saw play (although the GURPS books were always fun to read).

Sometimes the product that I want to sell is not available at all, like the second version of Pyramid.

I might try OGRE one day if I decide I am staying in the New Country. l never tried Car Wars or Munchkin.

[philreed]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

My memory (and memories are not facts, but marketers have to deal with perception not reality) was one short post on a SJGames website . . .

I did a little digging and found:

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/J..._Ways_Than_One

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/J...cal_Game_Store

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/J...s_For_December

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/D...Year_For_GURPS

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/D...des_Your_Store

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/D...leplaying_Game

Those are posts from December and January. Additionally, those are not _all_ of the posts from those two months that included mentions of Discworld and Mars Attacks.

So: A few questions.

* How often do you visit the Steve Jackson Games front page/Daily Illuminator?
* Do you follow any of our social media channels?
* What can we do to put the news in front of you regularly?

The world is a flood of information, and it is our job to make sure _our_ information reaches you. We have clearly failed in this instance, so we are left trying to figure out the best way to alert you to news about new games and expansions.

[Anders]

Phil, does SJG post their releases in the forum for promoting new releases on RPG Net?

[hectorgrey]

While I can't answer for Polydamas, I personally rarely visit the SJGames website beyond being subscribed to this thread. I actually wasn't aware there were any social media channels (and in fact learned about the youtube channel from this thread), though I might consider following them now that I know about them. I rarely visit any given company's website for news about games, and as a result I tend to hear most things through word of mouth; particularly via the /r/rpg subreddit and from people I game with.

Given the common perception of GURPS as only being for people who want incredibly detailed and complex rules for everything and who hate fun, GURPS rarely ends up being mentioned in either of the above, save by someone like me saying something along the lines of "You do know that GURPS can do things besides harsh realism and excessive complexity, right?", or by someone else saying something similar to "Well, if you don't like fun there's always GURPS"...

I kinda feel like GURPS needs its own equivalent to streams like RollPlay and Critical Roll - maybe something like that might actually draw attention to the brand, and if the games being played are varied enough they might correct some of the misconceptions.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by philreed

I did a little digging and found:

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/J..._Ways_Than_One

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/J...cal_Game_Store

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/J...s_For_December

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/D...Year_For_GURPS

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/D...des_Your_Store

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/D...leplaying_Game

Those are posts from December and January. Additionally, those are not _all_ of the posts from those two months that included mentions of Discworld and Mars Attacks.

The Illuminator from 7 January 2017 is the only one of those which my browser thinks I have seen, but it is not what I was thinking of and I periodically delete this site from my history to avoid being distracted by the forums.

Originally Posted by philreed

So: A few questions.

* How often do you visit the Steve Jackson Games front page/Daily Illuminator?
* Do you follow any of our social media channels?
* What can we do to put the news in front of you regularly?

The world is a flood of information, and it is our job to make sure _our_ information reaches you. We have clearly failed in this instance, so we are left trying to figure out the best way to alert you to news about new games and expansions.

I used to check the Illuminator every few weeks but stopped. I don't do Twitter or Instagram. Might try the FB page.

The problem is though that I am not really the target market for Discworld (wasn't able to find copies of the novels back when I was reading a novel a day) or Mars Attacks (never heard of the setting, no gaming group or FLGS). So I can only guess how to reach that market.

[Refplace]

I would never have though SJG had an Instagram page!
Link now added to my blog.

[csm]

Originally Posted by philreed

I did a little digging and found:

So: A few questions.

* How often do you visit the Steve Jackson Games front page/Daily Illuminator?
* Do you follow any of our social media channels?
* What can we do to put the news in front of you regularly?

The world is a flood of information, and it is our job to make sure _our_ information reaches you. We have clearly failed in this instance, so we are left trying to figure out the best way to alert you to news about new games and expansions.

I think the main problem is it's quite easy to tune out those sources when they're a flood of other material that isn't of interest.

I follow the Daily Illuminator. During the Muchkin Shakespeare Kickstarter I pretty much tuned it out. (And the guest artist editions, and the XMen edition, and the ... ) I also tuned out the OGRE material. And the other card games / board games haven't kept my interest. I knew that Discworld and Mars Attacks were coming out but wasn't sure exactly when they were hitting stores. But I'd stopped listening because it was Munchkin and OGRE so it was easier to ignore the message than to parse it.

Following anything on Twitter is pretty much useless. And there again, most of the efforts are on Munchkin and OGRE so it's easier to scroll on by.

I haven't checked the forums in a long time because (as mentioned before) I'm finding more enjoyment and more "hackability" in other games. So my interest in GURPS has waned significantly (and this is from someone who has made an effort in the past to collect everything in print and PDF).

I don't want to hamper the efforts of Munchkin and OGRE promotion, but it seems like GURPS gets the "Oh yeah, and here's GURPS" treatment in the marketing communication. Part of this is there hasn't been a lot of exciting releases (unless you're already invested as a GURPS aficionado). That there were two hardbacks coming out should have been much more exciting to me, but the message got lost in the excitement for the other products. I think I've remembered more about the Simon's Cat game than I have about the GURPS releases. And I'm more likely to see Bill and Ted / Simon's Cat at my FLGS than I am the new GURPS books.

I'm heartened that Dungeon Fantasy is trying to pull in new blood into GURPS. But I'm also worried that part of the reason it's taking a turn toward unprofit-ability is precisely the reason why GURPS as a whole isn't exciting anymore: few people who haven't already been exposed to the system are inclined to pick it up.

(And I'll say it again: I think the license for GURPS needs to be broadened and expanded to more open licensing. That's part of the reason I'm more open to other systems - because I can release my creations and not have to worry about stepping on licensing restrictions).