"hostile intent" and "hostile purpose" for spells

dds_ks · 10-02-2010, 05:42 PM

The Watchdog spell (M 167) warns the caster if anybody with "hostile intent" crosses the border of the spell.
The Pentagram spell (M 124) prevents anybody to teleport in with "hostile purposes".
Are these special legal terms in American law...
... which would be hard to understand for anybody not American...
... and maybe even for most Americans...
... or can it be so easy:

Black Hood Third Degree, a magic assassin, receives a letter which seems to be sent by the local baron, telling him to inhume (opposite of "exhume", see Terry Pratchett for more details) Jack the Lucky Hero, for a good prepaid amount (money already included in the letter).
For more details on the job, Black Hood Third Degree should meet the baron in one of his guest rooms in the castle, precisely at midnight.
Although Black Hood Third Degree knows that the castle and especially the guest rooms within are secured by Pentagram spells and Watchdog spells, he decides to teleport to the guest room (which he knows for any reason) at the proposed time, because he thinks that he would be absolutely welcome.
But then he doesn't find the baron, but the sleeping Jack the Lucky Hero, which seems to have used up all of his luck...

At the time of teleport, Black Hood Third Degree does - in general - plan to harm somebody sometime, but he doesn't expect to do it directly in consequence of his teleport. So Black Hood Third Degree was tricked into success?

Even worse:

Could Black Hood Third Degree planning any murder just temporary erase his memory with a Forgetfulness spell (M 135), leaving himself a short message saying where and when to teleport (short before the Forgetfulness spell elapses)? This would take him just some preparation time and 3 FP... which would already be restored when his trip begins, as the Forgetfulness spell lasts for 1 hour.

In this case Black Hood Third Degree even didn't plan any crime at the time of the teleport.
Can this be true?

And one standard situation:

Five Hands of Fate, a adventuring group of young heroes, entered an Orc-infested dungeon (this is how the Hands see it; the Orcs have a different view to matters). As there are more Orcs than the Hands can slay in one day, they find a small and rarely used looking room to camp and recover.
Abracadabra, the mysterious mage, uses a Watchdog spell just outside the door to wake him if any Orc comes close... but as the Orcs don't know that the Hands hide in the small room, the next two Orcs coming here have completely different ideas what they could do in this room... together... to replace the losses of the last day... so as long as they don't plan to "make love like war", their purposes are not at all hostile...
... of course they change to "hostile" the moment after they spottet the Hands, but this is after crossing the Watchdogs area...

sir_pudding · 10-02-2010, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dds_ks

At the time of teleport, Black Hood Third Degree does - in general - plan to harm somebody sometime, but he doesn't expect to do it directly in consequence of his teleport. So Black Hood Third Degree was tricked into success?

Certainly seems appropriate in Discworld.

Quote:

In this case Black Hood Third Degree even didn't plan any crime at the time of the teleport.
Can this be true?

I'd allow it. It's extensive and expensive preparation to overcome a defense. Cleverness in overcoming obstacles should be rewarded.

Really Pentagram isn't very good at defending against mortal foes anyway. It's primary purpose is to stop summoned monsters and the like, IMO.

Quote:

Abracadabra, the mysterious mage, uses a Watchdog spell just outside the door to wake him if any Orc comes close...
... of course they change to "hostile" the moment after they spottet the Hands, but this is after crossing the Watchdogs area...

If Abracadabra wasn't such a cheapskate he would have cast it over the entire area. The orcs would then trigger it as soon as they had hostile intent. OTOH, the orcs are enemies of the caster, and thus can always be considered to have hostile intent towards him, so I'd probably just consider them hostile, period.

dds_ks · 10-02-2010, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

If Abracadabra wasn't such a cheapskate he would have cast it over the entire area. The orcs would then trigger it as soon as they had hostile intent. OTOH, the orcs are enemies of the caster, and thus can always be considered to have hostile intent towards him, so I'd probably just consider them hostile, period.

In that case "hostile to the caster" would be more appropriate than any reference to intent (Watchdog) or purpose (Pentagram).

Ze'Manel Cunha · 10-02-2010, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dds_ks

In that case "hostile to the caster" would be more appropriate than any reference to intent (Watchdog) or purpose (Pentagram).

Right, if the orcs have no hostile intent when they cross the border of the spell it doesn't get triggered, the spell can't divine that once they realize that their kin's murderers are inside they'll become hostile.

Pagan · 10-03-2010, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Right, if the orcs have no hostile intent when they cross the border of the spell it doesn't get triggered, the spell can't divine that once they realize that their kin's murderers are inside they'll become hostile.

I would agree right up till they realize their kin's murderers are there and they get hostile. The spell doesn't only detect hostile intent at its borders. It covers the entire area so when hostile intent is generated within its area of effect it goes off. What it doesn't do is choose whose hostile intent, enemy or companion.

Orcs crossing into the area suddenly see your friends and decide to kill them....alarm goes off.

Friend resting within area of effect sees a figure moving in the darkness and decides to shoot it with his bow.....alarm goes off.

The only triggers are being within the area of effect and having hostile intent.

David Johnston2 · 10-03-2010, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pagan

I would agree right up till they realize their kin's murderers are there and they get hostile. The spell doesn't only detect hostile intent at its borders. It covers the entire area so when hostile intent is generated within its area of effect it goes off. What it doesn't do is choose whose hostile intent, enemy or companion.

Orcs crossing into the area suddenly see your friends and decide to kill them....alarm goes off.

Friend resting within area of effect sees a figure moving in the darkness and decides to shoot it with his bow.....alarm goes off.

The only triggers are being within the area of effect and having hostile intent.

Right, that's better than what I said.

Ze'Manel Cunha · 10-03-2010, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pagan

I would agree right up till they realize their kin's murderers are there and they get hostile. The spell doesn't only detect hostile intent at its borders. It covers the entire area so when hostile intent is generated within its area of effect it goes off. What it doesn't do is choose whose hostile intent, enemy or companion.

Orcs crossing into the area suddenly see your friends and decide to kill them....alarm goes off.

Friend resting within area of effect sees a figure moving in the darkness and decides to shoot it with his bow.....alarm goes off.

The only triggers are being within the area of effect and having hostile intent.

Oh absolutely, but I got the impression the caster had either saved some energy by creating the Watchdog as an empty hoop, getting a larger border but not covering the entire area, or that the area had turns and twists so that by the time the orcs were able to see the characters they were right on top of them when they make their realization.

sir_pudding · 10-02-2010, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dds_ks

In that case "hostile to the caster" would be more appropriate than any reference to intent (Watchdog) or purpose (Pentagram).

Sure, but monsters in hack-n-slash dungeon fantasy are always hostile.

Ze'Manel Cunha · 10-02-2010, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Sure, but monsters in hack-n-slash dungeon fantasy are always hostile.

He didn't say it was a DF setting...

sir_pudding · 10-02-2010, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

He didn't say it was a DF setting...

Band of adventurers raiding an orc "dungeon"?

10-02-2010, 05:42 PM	#1
dds_ks Join Date: Jan 2010	"hostile intent" and "hostile purpose" for spells The Watchdog spell (M 167) warns the caster if anybody with "hostile intent" crosses the border of the spell. The Pentagram spell (M 124) prevents anybody to teleport in with "hostile purposes". Are these special legal terms in American law... ... which would be hard to understand for anybody not American... ... and maybe even for most Americans... ... or can it be so easy: Black Hood Third Degree, a magic assassin, receives a letter which seems to be sent by the local baron, telling him to inhume (opposite of "exhume", see Terry Pratchett for more details) Jack the Lucky Hero, for a good prepaid amount (money already included in the letter). For more details on the job, Black Hood Third Degree should meet the baron in one of his guest rooms in the castle, precisely at midnight. Although Black Hood Third Degree knows that the castle and especially the guest rooms within are secured by Pentagram spells and Watchdog spells, he decides to teleport to the guest room (which he knows for any reason) at the proposed time, because he thinks that he would be absolutely welcome. But then he doesn't find the baron, but the sleeping Jack the Lucky Hero, which seems to have used up all of his luck... At the time of teleport, Black Hood Third Degree does - in general - plan to harm somebody sometime, but he doesn't expect to do it directly in consequence of his teleport. So Black Hood Third Degree was tricked into success? Even worse: Could Black Hood Third Degree planning any murder just temporary erase his memory with a Forgetfulness spell (M 135), leaving himself a short message saying where and when to teleport (short before the Forgetfulness spell elapses)? This would take him just some preparation time and 3 FP... which would already be restored when his trip begins, as the Forgetfulness spell lasts for 1 hour. In this case Black Hood Third Degree even didn't plan any crime at the time of the teleport. Can this be true? And one standard situation: Five Hands of Fate, a adventuring group of young heroes, entered an Orc-infested dungeon (this is how the Hands see it; the Orcs have a different view to matters). As there are more Orcs than the Hands can slay in one day, they find a small and rarely used looking room to camp and recover. Abracadabra, the mysterious mage, uses a Watchdog spell just outside the door to wake him if any Orc comes close... but as the Orcs don't know that the Hands hide in the small room, the next two Orcs coming here have completely different ideas what they could do in this room... together... to replace the losses of the last day... so as long as they don't plan to "make love like war", their purposes are not at all hostile... ... of course they change to "hostile" the moment after they spottet the Hands, but this is after crossing the Watchdogs area...