[MA] Arm Lock, Judo Throw, Throws From Locks and Combinations: how they interact

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Unarmed Tanking
The style for the truly, truly outrageous monastic:)tank-aesthete.
Skills: Judo, striking skill of choice.
Techniques: Arm Lock (with combination, see below), Disarming, Feint, Sweep, Trip.
Cinematic Techniques: DWA, Handclap Parry.
Perks: Sacrificial Parry, Cotton Stomach.
Cinematic Skills: Push (esp. if low ST).
If using Arm Lock, the lock-throw combination is essential, since you can't afford to stay in a grapple if there is more than one opponent.

I don't think Arm Lock is necessary in this case. As you mention in another post, you have to parry, then apply a lock. You may only apply the lock on your next turn -- and I believe it was recently stated that really does mean next TURN, not next attack.

Throws from a lock are the single most damaging grappling move in GURPS, I believe. Swing damage to a limb or the neck is uniformly bad jujubees.

However, for the Tank-type, I'd recommend Technique Mastery (Judo Throw) as the most important go-to, and possibly Technique Master (Sweep).

Sweep defaults to Judo-3, and even without a grapple or parry, puts a guy on the ground. With Technique Mastery, if allowed, you can get it up to Judo+4. You'll need it to Sweep strong guys.

Judo Throw is the definitive tank move. It can be done defensively after a parry, and is totally independent of the other guy's ST by RAW. It pits your skill vs. his (your attack, his parry), and you can throw him for damage if you like. Even if you don't there's a chance he'll be stunned, which in lethal combat is almost as good as dead.

The key here is that both of these moves put the bad guy in a compromised position, which is -2 to defenses for most critters, and -4 to attack. This allows (for example) a friend with a spear, bow, polearm to impale the guy. You can AoA/Telegraphic if the guy's stunned, even.

Judo-guy can do this once per attack, which with the proper advantages, is a big deal, especially if he has a high enough speed to be able to cover a few hexes with a step.

I don't discount totally the Lock/Throw from Lock combination (it's one of the best ways, for example, to actually KILL someone using a grappling skill), but it basically slows down your capability to interact with a foe to once every two turns, assuming you always do this from a parry. If you go offensive, you'll need to Rapid Strike or have Extra Attack (recommended!) so you can grapple and lock in one turn, then throw on the next. Still, that Contest is of DX, ST, best grappling skill, or Breakfall (but if so, he still goes down, which is non-trivial). The Contest that can be resisted by ST is a big deal, I suspect, in DF and games where very strong creatures abound.

[vicky_molokh]

First of all, let me state that I do not believe in the Unarmed Tank without serious backing by Exotic/Supernatural traits or a ridiculous CP level.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I don't think Arm Lock is necessary in this case. As you mention in another post, you have to parry, then apply a lock. You may only apply the lock on your next turn -- and I believe it was recently stated that really does mean next TURN, not next attack.

Oh, I do think that Arm Lock is an eccentric choice unless the combo is maxed out. Maybe even if it is.
But I don't think there is a meaningful difference between next turn and next attack for a tank, because the tank will always be parrying on somebody else's turn. Sure, if the tank steps into a Wait, and then parries an attack, s/he can't Arm Lock.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

However, for the Tank-type, I'd recommend Technique Mastery (Judo Throw) as the most important go-to, and possibly Technique Master (Sweep).

Is it a mystery why a Kick and a Judo Throw are not considered core uses, but a Punch and a Grapple are. Okay, adding TM(JT), as it is a dream come true.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

If you go offensive, you'll need to Rapid Strike or have Extra Attack (recommended!) so you can grapple and lock in one turn, then throw on the next. Still, that Contest is of DX, ST, best grappling skill, or Breakfall (but if so, he still goes down, which is non-trivial). The Contest that can be resisted by ST is a big deal, I suspect, in DF and games where very strong creatures abound.

Seems like another good Combination: grapple-lock-throw (is it in some of the recent MA PDFs, or am I misremembering?).

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

First of all, let me state that I do not believe in the Unarmed Tank without serious backing by Exotic/Supernatural traits or a ridiculous CP level.

With Judo as written in GURPS, it more or less qualifies. No penalty vs. weapons, and not really impacted by the foe's ST. Still, overall I tend to agree.

Oh, I do think that Arm Lock is an eccentric choice unless the combo is maxed out. Maybe even if it is.
But I don't think there is a meaningful difference between next turn and next attack for a tank, because the tank will always be parrying on somebody else's turn. Sure, if the tank steps into a Wait, and then parries an attack, s/he can't Arm Lock.

Let me detail this out:

Arm Lock case:

Other guy's turn: attacks; Judo guy parries.
Judo Guy's New Turn: He applies Arm Lock.
Other guy's turn: he desperately tries to get out.
THIRD guy's turn: he can do whatever he wants since Judo guy is locking Other Guys' arm, and fully occupied doing that.
Judo Guy's Second Turn: He applies damage with his lock (free action) or makes a throw (this is an attack).

Judo Throw case:

Other guy's turn: he attacks, JT guy parries
JT guy: executes Judo Throw, likely for damage. Other guy at least on the ground, hopefully stunned, possibly damaged.
Second guy: attacks JT guy, who may parry.
Third guy: attacks JT guy, who may parry at no penalty (one-handed parry)
Fourth guy: attacks JT guy, who maybe can parry at -4 using that optional rule.
JT guy: executes Judo Throw on second, third, and fourth guys by using Extra Attack and Rapid Strike, or AoA(Double) and Rapid Strike.

The Judo Throw is nearly an area-denial weapon used this way. Even if what I laid out (multiple throws using multiple attacks) isn't rules-legal, he can still do a JT on a different foe every turn, while using a Lock technique, he's doing something every other turn, and in between, he's grappling a guy, and will have a hard time defending himself AND maintaining the grapple so he can win the QC to throw or damage when his turn comes up.

Is it a mystery why a Kick and a Judo Throw are not considered core uses, but a Punch and a Grapple are. Okay, adding TM(JT), as it is a dream come true.

I think that Judo Throw IS the core use of Judo. Judo in a way is simply the art of using Judo Throw. So you need TM to exceed it.

I won't speak for kicking.

Seems like another good Combination: grapple-lock-throw (is it in some of the recent MA PDFs, or am I misremembering?).

I'd have to check, but throws from locks (Martial Arts, pp. 118-119) says you can do a throw from a lock on any turn AFTER the one you throw your foe.

I don't think, by RAW, this can be done as a one-turn action. I'd certainly be amenable to making "next turn" be "next attack," but if it's there as NEXT TURN, it's because Sean and Peter put it there purposefully. "after" is in italics in the original: They purposefully excluded the "same turn" case.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I think that Judo Throw IS the core use of Judo. Judo in a way is simply the art of using Judo Throw. So you need TM to exceed it.

I won't speak for kicking.

I believe his point was that you can't use Technique Mastery on the core use of a skill, so TM (Judo Throw) isn't allowed. Just buy up more Judo levels, instead.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Langy

I believe his point was that you can't use Technique Mastery on the core use of a skill, so TM (Judo Throw) isn't allowed. Just buy up more Judo levels, instead.

Martial Arts, p. 166. Technique Mastery (Judo Throw) is listed in the Judo style.

Technique Mastery (Martial Arts, p. 52) explicitly lists TM (Judo Throw) as being "fine."

I see his point better, which I missed before. Which IS that TM (JT) is odd, because of my own point: JT is nearly the core of what Judo is all about, rather than grappling.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I'd have to check, but throws from locks (Martial Arts, pp. 118-119) says you can do a throw from a lock on any turn AFTER the one you throw your foe.

I don't think, by RAW, this can be done as a one-turn action. I'd certainly be amenable to making "next turn" be "next attack," but if it's there as NEXT TURN, it's because Sean and Peter put it there purposefully. "after" is in italics in the original: They purposefully excluded the "same turn" case.

This is indeed so for someone who only has one attack per turn.

Fairbairn Close Combat Systems (GURPS, that is) lists the following Combination on p.11:
Number 19 Wrist Throw: Judo Grapple/Hand + Judo Arm
Lock + Judo Throw/Torso.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

This is indeed so for someone who only has one attack per turn.

Fairbairn Close Combat Systems (GURPS, that is) lists the following Combination on p.11:
Number 19 Wrist Throw: Judo Grapple/Hand + Judo Arm
Lock + Judo Throw/Torso.

Interesting. And important to me, for obvious reasons. I will seek a clarification.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Martial Arts, p. 166. Technique Mastery (Judo Throw) is listed in the Judo style.

Technique Mastery (Martial Arts, p. 52) explicitly lists TM (Judo Throw) as being "fine."

I see his point better, which I missed before. Which IS that TM (JT) is odd, because of my own point: JT is nearly the core of what Judo is all about, rather than grappling.

I had an issue with that too but I got over it after considering that the Judo skill in Basic is not the Judo Martial Art. It ids pointed out again and again that the skills are meant to represent a style or type of combat training rather then the martial art for which they are named. So a lot of Styles use Judo as a core skill but the Style Judo focuses on this kind of move more so gets the perk.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

This is indeed so for someone who only has one attack per turn.

Fairbairn Close Combat Systems (GURPS, that is) lists the following Combination on p.11:
Number 19 Wrist Throw: Judo Grapple/Hand + Judo Arm
Lock + Judo Throw/Torso.

Peter pointed out that this person will spend many points for the privilege. The Combo is a Hard technique (so you spend an extra point here), plus three points (one each for the number of attacks).

So you can spend five (edited: you have to raise it above default) points to get the ability to grapple the hand, lock the arm or wrist, and throw him, ALL at -11 because it's three attacks.

This does NOT mean you can throw a guy on the same turn with Extra Attack or even Rapid Strike. It means if you buy a specific Combination, pay points for it, and are proficient enough to succeed despite the penalties, you can do this ONE THING in one turn.


Edit:

One more point here. The FCCT Combinations box gives the impression to me that it's listing the moves in order, but NOT telling you it's a three-move capital-C Combination. It even says ". . . the remainder would still be common combat moves, just not necessarily executed as single actions."

Lacking TBaM, the combination to which you refer is nearly impossible to perform in one move. You also have to spend at least 5 points to raise this one above default (edited above).

The FCCT box also notes that Sykes stopped teaching this very technique. Probably because it was too hard and didn't work.

Net/net: yes, you can do it, IF you buy a particular combination, and spend a bloody ton of points for it. If you buy TBaM, you can get all the stuff at base skill by spending ten points on one move: four as the price of entry, six more to buy off the halved -12 for Rapid Strike. In a realistic game, you have to spend 16 points for this ability at full skills for each move, more than Combat Reflexes.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Peter pointed out that this person will spend many points for the privilege. The Combo is a Hard technique (so you spend an extra point here), plus three points (one each for the number of attacks).

No arguments there, I was just pointing out that such a Combination exists in RAW.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

So you can spend four points to get the ability to grapple the hand, lock the arm or wrist, and throw him, ALL at -12 because it's three attacks.

BTW, I see zero reason for grappling the Hand, since Arm Lock automatically targets the hand if it is executed after a Parry or Grapple (as pointed out recently).

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

This does NOT mean you can throw a guy on the same turn with Extra Attack or even Rapid Strike. It means if you buy a specific Combination, pay points for it, and are proficient enough to succeed despite the penalties, you can do this ONE THING in one turn.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. If a Combination (Grapple+Lock+Throw) allows doing it in one turn, then it should be doable if you can perform three attack actions in a turn for some other reason (after all, a Combination is essentially an improved Rapid Strike with minor drawbacks).
But I do remember that Combinations and EA/RS do not 'stack' with each other. I wasn't even hoping to do anything in addition to the combo.