New Reality Seeds

[Dave_67]

Originally Posted by johndallman

The thing that made WWI start as it did was the alliance system, coupled with Austria-Hungary wanting revenge and territory, and Wilhelm II telling the Austrians they had Germany's backing, whatever they decided to do.

Which always struck me as - even in high school - the bullied kid who now has someone watching their back going up and poking at their bullies.

IMO, Austria-Hungary would probably have collapsed along ethnic lines even if Archduke Ferdinand had lived to try and implement his "United States of Austria" plan. As I mentioned before, I'm still working on my version of Dixie (Dixie-7) and have been toying with the idea that the empire eventually collapses anyways shortly after WW I despite attempts by the Kaiser to avert such a collapse.

[Astromancer]

Although I have no idea how you could get it built the Intermarium concept seems like a good seed for alternate histories. If Finland, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, and Greece, became either a unified nation or a strong alliance, then both Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia would have had a serious obstacle to deal with.

I don't think an Intermarium as either nation or alliance could have won a war with either power, the Nazis or the Stalinists, but either power would have to tread carefully because they wouldn't want to win over Intermarium just to be conquered by their most hated foe.

[doctorevilbrain]

That says it can't be reached.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by doctorevilbrain

That says it can't be reached.

I hadn't had a chance to put in the link yet. It's there now.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Although I have no idea how you could get it built the Intermarium concept seems like a good seed for alternate histories.

I don't see any way to construct it.

Poland has been fighting wars as of 1920 over territory with most of its neighbours, who will see this as another way to for Poland to get territory and power. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth is beyond living memory, and the states to the south have just won their freedom from the Austro-Hungarian empire, and won't be in a hurry to compromise it.

The Baltics have just won their freedom from the Russians, and won't want to be small fry in a large federation full of very different languages and cultures.

Romania and Hungary have a serious territorial dispute over Transylvania. The Romanians were talked into joining the Allied side in WWI and were promptly conquered by the Austro-Hungarian and German empires. They may not be keen on promises from other powers for a while.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by johndallman

I don't see any way to construct it.

Yeah, I'm trying to get a way for them all to ally together. The scenario I'm getting is weird enough that its arguably not the original: The British, French and Italians supporting central europe in a war against a communist Germany and Soviet union at the same time.


Weird, but not a bad idea. I just don't know how "Intermarium" it is.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Yeah, I'm trying to get a way for them all to ally together. The scenario I'm getting is weird enough that its arguably not the original: The British, French and Italians supporting central europe in a war against a communist Germany and Soviet union at the same time.


Weird, but not a bad idea. I just don't know how "Intermarium" it is.

It fits what the champions of the Intermarium idea would have seen as a possible future. So it's very Intermarium.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by johndallman

I don't see any way to construct it.

It requires a lot of lead-up (possibly starting before WWI), and probably someone unusually charismatic and multilingual. The earlier the PoD, the easier it is to justify it.

[Astromancer]

Germany was weaker and less organized militarily than most people are aware of in 1938. If Czechoslovakia and Poland had both attacked Germany at the same time in 1938 Germany could be caught off guard and have trouble organizing. Add a small piece of good luck here or there, and Germany could stay on the backfoot.

The other nations in Central Europe might join in an Intermarium not from hope but from fear. Fear of a German victory.

If you set this up as an Infinite Worlds setting, I could see Homeline aiding Intermarium and pulling strings to get them aid from the West. Centrum would be most interested in keeping the USSR out of the war. WWII might have wounded the British Empire, but the Cold War killed it. A Russia uninvolved in the outside world is better for their personal vision.

It would be a very different WWII.

[PTTG]

The Bigsby series of worldlines are fully acknowledged and as open as any similar worldline might be. It's just how Homeline got their coordinates which is top secret. If asked, the joke is that the coordinates were dropped off by a friendly leprechaun.

What they have in common is the standard WWII alternate scenario, but all of them are very unlike homeline's history.

Bigsby-1 is the most explicable worldline. This was technically an Axis victory. However, the ascendant power in this case was Italy, which has the other two axis powers (among others) as economic appendages. In the present year of 1964, The Soviet Union and Nationalist China are embroiled in a war of mutual annihilation, but fortunately neither side has access to atomic weapons and their collective industrial capacity is _dropping_ every year. The USA never fixed its torpedo problems and generally performed very poorly in the pacific war. The combination of momentum, technology, strategy, and pure luck which drove Italy's forces to take out France early in the war and then dominate the African front while German forces were bogged down in interminable fighting in the east have all faded. Everyone sees the cracks and the flaws, but they look to the starving, eternally-embargoed Britain or the flatly mad death cult that Germany became, and think themselves in the best possible world.

Bigsby-2 at first seemed more reasonable. French diplomacy with Belgium went through a catastrophe in the decades before the war. The alliance fell through, and France extended the Maginot line all the way to the sea. While they were at it, there was substantial improvement to its technology and the organization of defensive troops. The fascists in Germany still believed in French weakness; in this worldline it was fatal overconfidence. Not only was the initial attack repulsed, the sheer affront galvanized the French population to put an end to Germany's warmongering. This would in any other worldline have been absurd, but here, French élan prevailed alone, and the legions stopped only when they reached the Soviet border in Poland. Western Poland was restored, and the iron curtain fell 400 miles due east. Old Germany was split into a grid of regions 150km on an edge and the population forcibly migrated to break up social networks. Nazis were purged; as in OTL, they responded to their impeding defeat with pointless atrocities, and an already furious France faced no outcry.

The shattered Germany had no identity left; the German remnant states were more-or-less openly forced into being economic and political subunits of a wider France, along with German colonial holdings. Following an economic slump in the UK over the following decades, this left France with the majority of the industrialized world in its direct control. Political reform within and without has resulted in a modern 1975 where French is, once again, the Lingua Franca, and Paris is the effective center of a global hegemon. It is only the tense and bitterly cold war against the USSR which makes a question of French domination of the world.

Bigsby-3: By now you know what sort of nonsense you're getting into. Bigsby-3 saw the safe receipt of the Zimmerman telegram. In any sane world, Mexico would have declined the invitation to suicide. However, Bigsby-3 saw a somewhat different (and itself very strange) itebellium period in Mexico, leading to an ambitious and united military staff in Mexico, rather than the midst of a civil war. Though the political leadership declined, a quiet coup in the following days lead to a response telegram accepting the terms and, further, coordinating with Japan.

Mexico's new military government realized its hold was tenuous. They built a careful casus belli, helped by some useful allies in Argentina, Brazil, and Chile. This allowed Mexico to build forces on the border while claiming they were to protect against American attack. Skillful handling of the inevitable conflict allowed Mexico to launch a full-scale invasion of the USA not long after Japan began their attack.

The two coordinated, with Mexico proceeding eastward along the gulf while Japan claimed the west coast. Due to (this part of the historical record is damaged) signed the surrender of the USA to Mexico, with the world's longest and most heavily armed border now being drawn along the Sierra Nevada mountains. In Europe, the iron curtain fell along the french border. This left Japan standing to fight the USSR into the ground in China.

A technical win for Mexico, who exited the war dramatically expanded and with a continental fortress. At the present date of 1970, California through to Washington are restless occupied states, while Mexico administers what else is left of the USA. Most of the rest of the planet (except, of course, for South America) is still fighting the insane and chaotic war that somehow lead to Carranza accepting FDR's surrender.

*Disregard 3. I was not in my right mind when I wrote it.

Bigsby-4 Poland won. Classed cosmic top secret. It is hinted that however this happened, it's got something to do with what Van Zandt told the UN.

Bigsby-5 Somehow, the Ottoman Empire exited WWI stronger than they entered it. It is believed the PoD might have even gone back to the late 1700s. Regardless, the Empire moved from strength to strength (known for a time as "the strongman of Europe,") and while the Great War was seen as a loss, it resulted in further revitalization of the Ottoman military and an excuse to clean house of certain radical internal movements.

The war of the '40s was not really like WWII in many respects, but nonetheless had many of the same figures. By the time the dust settled, the Empire bordered the English channel.