Injury Tolerance: Blur

[Donny Brook]

For alternative builds, what about:

-Some modified version of automatic Shrinking that only applies to inbound attacks?

-Or maybe there's a way using the Power Ups 4: Enhancements to price reduced SM against attacks only?

-Or what about a Reversed Line of Sight Affliction that makes attackers less competent?

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

The feedback is the mechanics is not inline with GURPS 4e does things. Obscure is. Also what your mechanics are closer to GURPS 3e's Passive Defense that was removed from 4e except for Shield Defensive Bonus for a reason.

A legitimate compliant, but I'm willing to break away from RAW to get what I need here. My concern is more with balance, and I don't think that's an issue with my suggested trait.

I didn't get into GURPS until 4e, but from what I've read the main problem with PD was that it caused heavy armor to turn characters into Dodge-monkeys. That's not an issue here.

Originally Posted by Wavefunction

If you want a mechanic where something has a % chance to miss, regardless of source, then you make one.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Humabout

Varyon, it's a cool idea, but tell me if I'm wrong in thinking this is basically giving the target an extra dodge, with a preset dodge score, against any attack. If so, I'd look into limiting Altered Time Rate.

It's sort of like an extra Dodge, but any feasible ATR build is going to be some contorted convoluted nightmare. Over time, IT:Blur works out about the same as IT:DR (although the latter has some rounding artifacts), it's just different for individual attacks.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

A penalty to hit works better in my opinion for 4th edition rules.

I can see that, but I'm fine with the added complication of a further roll (well, adding a dice or two to the normal defense* roll, anyway).

*I previously mentioned adding them to the attack roll, but I don't see why a character with IT:Blur should get a free pass on needing to attempt a defense. Basically, the way it would go would be the enemy attacks, then if the character opts to defend he rolls both the defense and the IT:Blur effect; if the defense succeeds, that’s the end of that, but if it fails then the IT:Blur result determines if the character is hit or not.

Originally Posted by scc

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the same thing as the ninja clone trick?

Ninja clones, like in Naruto, would be a modified version of Duplication (assuming a Powers-based approach). Ninja decoys in the way they typically work are a modified form of Warp (yes, it's technically "I left a decoy without you realizing it and then snuck up behind you," but the way it generally works is "I teleported behind you and left a decoy in my place"). The only portrayal of a decoy that I've seen that would work here would be from Akari (The Last Blade). That game is a lot like Samurai Shodown in that certain attacks, if used as the final strike in a fight, will gut (blood spray) or bisect your foe - but if you do that to Akari, the match still ends, but her "corpse" turns into a broken seal and her real body teleports in. That's honestly more like a modified version of Extra Life or Unkillable, however.

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

For alternative builds, what about:

These would all result in attack penalties, for which Obscure (Anti-Targeting -20%*) is a good fit. That's not what this thread is about, however.

*Was that a typo? Affecting targeting seems like either an Enhancement or a +0% Modifier to only affect targeting, but I don't have Psionic Powers (Psi isn't generally in my interests) to confirm.

...

That addendum to my response to Ghostdancer makes me realize some more modifiers that would be appropriate for IT:Blur.

First would be the ability to know, in advance, if IT:Blur will negate an attack or not - this allows the character to avoid wasting a defense against an attack that wouldn’t connect anyway. It’s a decent ability, but overall not that great - I’m thinking instead of a modifier this would be something with a straight cost, maybe [5]. A name for this Trait would be welcome.

Another that would be very common would be one that makes your ability apply to your gear as well - Force Field +20% should do it.

The default for IT:Blur is that it only applies to attacks against you, but for partial insubstantiality and the like, it would make sense that it would sometimes cause you to miss your target as well. I’m thinking -50%, based on the +100% of Affects Substantial. This is per attack, not per round. Characters with this trait - we’ll call it Two-Way -50% - get Force Field for free. A character with has the ability to know when IT:Blur will work can take Two-Way at only -20% - with this version of the trait, the character rolls for IT:Blur before choosing a maneuver, and can act based on it. For example, if you know you’d have to attack three times before you’d actually have a chance to harm your foe this maneuver, you might instead opt for a Feint, All Out Defense, or similar.

For some types of IT:Blur - again, partial insubstantiality comes to mind - it makes sense for the trait to functionally negate the same in another character. By default (well, default when this is in play), you can simply subtract the IT:Blur level of the attacker from that of the defender, to a minimum of 0%. Optionally (or automatically if the attacker has either form of Two-Way), roll for both characters - if the attacker and defender are both affected or both unaffected by IT:Blur, the attack succeeds; otherwise, it fails. This is a +0% Enhancement, but the modifiers on both versions of IT:Blur must match - IT:Blur (Insubstantial +0%) doesn’t interact with IT:Blur (Evasion +0%).

Again, for some types of IT:Blur, there may be particular powers that ignore the effect. Insubstantial is typically Limited: Physical -20%, and being negated by Affects Insubstantial is arguably worth -10%, for -30% total. Being negated by a substance (or whatever) is simply an appropriate Bane. For powers that are basically “Negates this one Advantage” (like Affects Substantial), +20% is comparable to a Common Bane, +40% an Occasional Bane, +60% a Rare Bane.
(As an aside, I intend to allow for powers that are treated as being something non-standard - like a Crushing IA that’s a block of salt or a Burning IA that’s treated as sunlight - that is a Weakness or Vulnerability to pay +20% for a Very Common material, +40% for Common, +60% for Occasional, and +80% for Rare. Affects Substantial is thus priced the same as a Very Common material, but is functionally Common instead because it has such a limited scope).

Note many of the above could be ported back to IT:DR. For example, a super who gains IT:DR by lessening his physical interaction with reality would also likely do less damage with a strike (there was a speedster in Worm with exactly this secondary power), for Two-Way, and having IT:DR protect your gear can make sense (although note this wouldn't multiply the DR of any armor worn, it would just mean that it doesn't get damaged as much by being penetrated; might need work if you have ablative/semi-ablative DR, however).

[Kelly Pedersen]

Personally, I like the idea - I think it fills some niches that Obscure doesn't. For example, if you're literally "stuttering" in and out of reality, it would logically affect attacks that Obscure wouldn't touch, such as area-effect blasts and such. I would suggest changing the name to Injury Tolerance (Attack Evasion), however. "Blur" is just confusing the issue.

However, I don't think pricing this just the same as Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction) is right. I think this is actually more effective than IT (DR), because it should logically work on effects that don't do damage. For example, IT (DR) won't have an effect on an Affliction, or Binding, or a Crushing Attack with No Wounding but Double Knockback, whereas this logically would (at least, for some explanations of the mechanic). Therefore, I think the base cost of this should be twice as much as IT (DR).

Some thought should also be put to how it works against continuous attacks - these are usually resolved as a single damage roll per turn, but logically, if you're just skipping out every 1/10th of a second, you should still be getting effected by 9/10ths of the damage, since it's really happening over a period of time.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Varyon

These would all result in attack penalties, for which Obscure (Anti-Targeting -20%*) is a good fit. That's not what this thread is about, however.

*Was that a typo? Affecting targeting seems like either an Enhancement or a +0% Modifier to only affect targeting, but I don't have Psionic Powers (Psi isn't generally in my interests) to confirm.

Another that would be very common would be one that makes your ability apply to your gear as well - Force Field +20% should do it.

.

Anti-Targeting is a limitation because Obscure already does that and more.
This is not really clear in the description of Obscure but has later been clarified.
As for the Forcefield, I would go with the Can Carry enhancement instead. Its more versatile and specific in how much it can apply to.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I would suggest changing the name to Injury Tolerance (Attack Evasion), however. "Blur" is just confusing the issue.

Injury Tolerance: Attack Evasion (IT:EA) could work. I'll give it some thought.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

However, I don't think pricing this just the same as Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction) is right. I think this is actually more effective than IT (DR), because it should logically work on effects that don't do damage. For example, IT (DR) won't have an effect on an Affliction, or Binding, or a Crushing Attack with No Wounding but Double Knockback, whereas this logically would (at least, for some explanations of the mechanic). Therefore, I think the base cost of this should be twice as much as IT (DR).

As I noted in the original post, IT:Blur doesn't work against Afflictions (but an Enhancement to let it do so would be appropriate). Binding and attack add-on effects (knockback for crushing, ignition for burning, DR reduction for corrosion, Side Effects for, well, anything) aren't cases I had considered. With how hairy some of those can can be if they aren't negated ("Your torch passes through the wraith without any effect. Unrelated note, it's now on fire."), you may be right that it's likely best to have the base version affect these, but that ends up making all the modifiers worth (IMO) too much. I also feel doubling the price may be excessive, but at the same time, particularly with your continuous attack mention, it occurs to me that someone who is only "there" 10% of the time is going to be pretty tough to keep hold of with a grapple or Binding, or tie up or whatever. Fortunately, there's a trait that handles that - Slippery.

Here's my thought, then - default IT:Blur simply deletes any injury you suffer if it comes into play (shunts it to another dimension, say) but doesn't have any impact on effects that aren't explicitly injury. A Crushing attack will still send you flying (although IT:Blur can still negate the damage from hitting a wall at the end of the flight), a Burning attack still set you on fire (that only has a chance of actually injuring you each round), and so forth. The Attack Evasion +100% modifier extends this to all attacks (including Afflictions and the like) and their effects, and also functionally gives you an enhanced version of Slippery that works even if you're grappled with teeth, claws, or similar and has no upper limit to the number of levels you may take (Slippery is usually limited to 5 levels). You are essentially given 4 levels of Slippery (Cosmic, Extended +50%) per level of IT:Blur. That is, divide the base cost of whatever level of IT:Blur you have by 25 and multiply by 4 (round down); that's how many levels of Slippery you gain. For reference, every level of Slippery is +1 to ST, DX, and Escape rolls for slipping restraints, breaking free, etc, and if using Technical Grappling every two levels is +1 to Control Resistance. These effects apply equally to your foe, however - it's a lot easier to break away from someone who's only there 10% of the time as well! If you want to be able to grapple freely, you can waive the Slippery effect, but this means anyone grappling you can attack you freely and enjoys the benefits of your IT:Blur (you're trading in Slippery +50% for Affects Others +50%, where the latter doesn't require a willing target but also isn't under your control). This must be chosen when the trait is purchased.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Some thought should also be put to how it works against continuous attacks - these are usually resolved as a single damage roll per turn, but logically, if you're just skipping out every 1/10th of a second, you should still be getting effected by 9/10ths of the damage, since it's really happening over a period of time.

The easiest method is just to treat these as discrete attacks - simply roll each second to see if it affects you for the entire second or not. Otherwise, a +0% modifier (maybe call it Discrete) means your IT:Blur works normally against discrete attacks, but against continuous damage it functions as IT:DR. I consider the two cases to be equal - with a 4 HP per second effect and IT:Blur 50%, the default means you might get lucky and take no damage or unlucky and take full damage, while with Discrete +0% you simply take 2 HP per second (over the course of 10 seconds, both characters would average 20 HP injury).

Originally Posted by Refplace

Anti-Targeting is a limitation because Obscure already does that and more.
This is not really clear in the description of Obscure but has later been clarified.

I was unaware of this. Do you know where this was clarified? I don't see this outlined in Basic or Powers.

Originally Posted by Refplace

As for the Forcefield, I would go with the Can Carry enhancement instead. Its more versatile and specific in how much it can apply to.

The description of Can Carry Objects (P108) explicitly notes that defensive effects should use Force Field instead. Additionally, if you look at the examples of traits to which it would apply, you'll note they're basically all "This ability doesn't work right when carrying gear." IT:Blur doesn't interfere with your ability to use gear (and gear doesn't interfere with its ability to function), so Can Carry Objects isn't appropriate.
(A more nuanced version of Force Field that is limited to less than Extra Heavy Encumbrance could be interesting, however)

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Varyon

The description of Can Carry Objects (P108) explicitly notes that defensive effects should use Force Field instead. Additionally, if you look at the examples of traits to which it would apply, you'll note they're basically all "This ability doesn't work right when carrying gear." IT:Blur doesn't interfere with your ability to use gear (and gear doesn't interfere with its ability to function), so Can Carry Objects isn't appropriate.
(A more nuanced version of Force Field that is limited to less than Extra Heavy Encumbrance could be interesting, however)

If your slipping in and out of dimension or phase than it seems to me to be a fit. If not there should be a limit on how bulky your gear can be.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Varyon

As I noted in the original post, IT:Blur doesn't work against Afflictions (but an Enhancement to let it do so would be appropriate).

What's the logic for not letting it work on Afflictions? Remember, by default, an Affliction is a physical effect, just like Innate Attack or Binding or what have you - it takes Malediction to make it into more of a mental thing.

In any case, I think this highlights a general issue with this idea - you need to pin down a little more firmly what it's actually doing to produce this effect. Just doing a pure game-mechanical "it has a miss chance" is not enough to really work out what should or should not be affected. Compare Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction), which is definitely saying what is happening, in world - your body resists damage better than others. The reasons for this may change, but the effect is consistent. I think you need to pin this trait down similarly. And if it's just a visual thing, where you're not quite where people think you are, the general consensus that Obscure already does this is correct.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Here's my thought, then - default IT:Blur simply deletes any injury you suffer if it comes into play (shunts it to another dimension, say) but doesn't have any impact on effects that aren't explicitly injury. A Crushing attack will still send you flying (although IT:Blur can still negate the damage from hitting a wall at the end of the flight), a Burning attack still set you on fire (that only has a chance of actually injuring you each round), and so forth.

I don't think this makes much sense, even if you define the effect as sensory - why would an attack that misses you still have its non-injury effects?

Originally Posted by Varyon

The easiest method is just to treat these as discrete attacks - simply roll each second to see if it affects you for the entire second or not.

This also has issues. If the trait is literally making you be not there part of the time, you should be taking less damage. If it's just shifting people's perception of you, it should have no effect on the damage at all.

Originally Posted by Varyon

I was unaware of this. Do you know where this was clarified? I don't see this outlined in Basic or Powers.

It's a logical progression from the combat modifiers in Basic: an attacker takes -1 to -9 for "Partial darkness, fog, smoke, etc.", listed under Visibility (on p. B547, emphasis mine). Obscure gives a penalty to vision by default, therefore it gives a penalty to hit you, because it's a visibility penalty. The Anti-Targeting limitation in Psionic Powers makes this even more clear - it's a limitation, not an enhancement, to make Obscure only affect rolls to hit you, not rolls to sense you.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

What's the logic for not letting it work on Afflictions? Remember, by default, an Affliction is a physical effect, just like Innate Attack or Binding or what have you.

Such as Stun guns

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Refplace

If your slipping in and out of dimension or phase than it seems to me to be a fit. If not there should be a limit on how bulky your gear can be.

It's purely defensive in nature, and I'm not going to charge extra points because a player fluffs up his version of the trait "wrong." If the ability could be used to actually interact meaningfully with the other dimension, then Can Carry Objects might be valid, but in that case the character would have some modified version of Jumper in addition to (or as an Alternative Ability to) IT:Blur.

Admittedly, the lines get a little hazy if we have two instances of IT:Blur with the same setup cancel each other out, as at that point the trait is no longer fully defensive in nature (it gives up some of its defensive ability for some offense). In that case, I'd be tempted to replace Force Field with Can Carry Objects, possibly at a reduced price (as it's only impacting a part of the trait). I'd probably go with +5% for No Encumbrance, +10% for Light, +20% for Medium, +50% for Heavy, +100% for Extra Heavy. If we do this, however, it would be fair to allow characters with other versions of IT:Blur (or even other traits, like DR) to reduce the worth of Force Field if it doesn't work with Extra Heavy Encumbrance. Maybe +2% for No Encumbrance, +5% for Light, +10% for Medium, +15% for Heavy, and +20% for Extra Heavy (the default for Force Field).

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

What's the logic for not letting it work on Afflictions? Remember, by default, an Affliction is a physical effect, just like Innate Attack or Binding or what have you - it takes Malediction to make it into more of a mental thing.

The logic for not having Afflictions and the like be affected is because they aren't affected by IT:DR. If it doesn't make sense for your version of the trait (and frankly, for most it won't), you'll need to buy the Attack Evasion +100% Enhancement.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I don't think this makes much sense, even if you define the effect as sensory - why would an attack that misses you still have its non-injury effects?

A sensory version of IT:Blur would have Attack Evasion +100%. An ability that instantly heals any damage as it's being caused but isn't 100% reliable (either fails randomly or is only in effect some percentage of the time), for example, is appropriate for the default case of IT:Blur - sure, you heal, but you still get knocked back, set aflame, poisoned, or whatever.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

This also has issues. If the trait is literally making you be not there part of the time, you should be taking less damage. If it's just shifting people's perception of you, it should have no effect on the damage at all.

It's an issue of game resolution. Weakness 1d/minute should cause continuous damage over the course of a minute, such that a vampire who ducks into sunlight for only a few seconds would take less damage than one who spends a full minute out in it, but GURPS resolution has both characters suffering the same 1d. So here, maybe the character's ability really is failing often enough that he should be taking reduced damage each round instead of full damage some rounds and no damage others, but the player and/or GM have opted to just abstract things.

As for sensory effects, for a game that isn't too serious you can either ignore it or come up with an explanation ("It looked like my character was swimming through the pool of acid because my power was playing tricks on everyone - I actually found a safe ledge I could cross, but still got some acid on me"). For a more serious one, a Limitation to not work against indiscriminate attacks would be appropriate for such a power.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

It's a logical progression from the combat modifiers in Basic: an attacker takes -1 to -9 for "Partial darkness, fog, smoke, etc.", listed under Visibility (on p. B547, emphasis mine). Obscure gives a penalty to vision by default, therefore it gives a penalty to hit you, because it's a visibility penalty. The Anti-Targeting limitation in Psionic Powers makes this even more clear - it's a limitation, not an enhancement, to make Obscure only affect rolls to hit you, not rolls to sense you.

Fair enough - I'll be certain to keep it in mind.

One thing to keep in mind with sensory effects - if my power is causing you to think I'm half a yard away from my actual position, it doesn't matter how skilled of a shot you are - what matters is if my power makes the mistake of projecting my location as still being in line with my body (such that your arrow goes through the projection and hits me, rather than being harmlessly aimed to my right). That is why a straight percentage miss chance is more appropriate than a to-hit penalty.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Varyon

A sensory version of IT:Blur would have Attack Evasion +100%.

Do you mean here that it wouldn't have it?

Originally Posted by Varyon

An ability that instantly heals any damage as it's being caused but isn't 100% reliable (either fails randomly or is only in effect some percentage of the time), for example, is appropriate for the default case of IT:Blur

This is an example of what I mean when I say that you need to settle on some kind of actual in-setting effect before we can properly evaluate the trait. You suggest that a visible distortion effect would be an example of "Injury Tolerance: Blur", and then suggest that the above, super-but-unreliable regeneration, would also be an example. But they have rather significantly different effects - a visible distortion field would still be vulnerable to effects targeted at the area you were in, rather than yourself, whereas this regeneration effect would work just fine on area effects, but would logically vulnerable to massive damage attacks, that did enough damage to just annihilate you outright before the regeneration could kick in. Also, why does the unreliable regeneration treat each wound discretely? This would be better built with Regeneration (Extreme) with the Unreliable limitation.

Originally Posted by Varyon

It's an issue of game resolution. Weakness 1d/minute should cause continuous damage over the course of a minute, such that a vampire who ducks into sunlight for only a few seconds would take less damage than one who spends a full minute out in it, but GURPS resolution has both characters suffering the same 1d.

Such a character probably has Variable on their Weakness. I'd say a reasonable way of handling Weakness with Variable would be, instead of halving or doubling the damage, roll double the normal damage ahead of time, divide the time period into equal segments, and apply an applicable fraction of the damage every segment that the character is actually out in it. So if you've got Weakess (Sunlight), 1d/minute with Variable, the GM would roll 1dX2 at the start of the time. If they rolled 10 points, they could inflict 1 point of damage every 6 seconds you were out in the sunlight, whereas if they rolled 12, they could inflict 2 points every 10 seconds.

Originally Posted by Varyon

One thing to keep in mind with sensory effects - if my power is causing you to think I'm half a yard away from my actual position, it doesn't matter how skilled of a shot you are

This also applies with Obscure. Obscure 10 means "you can't detect or target the person with the affected sense at all" - there's a qualitative difference between Obscure 9, which is -9 to hit, and Obscure 10, which is "you can't see me at all, you must rely on another sense entirely". Obscure 10 with Anti-Targeting is a "total displacement" power, which prevents someone from effectively hitting you at all if they're shooting at your image.