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Old 06-22-2012, 10:11 PM   #141
vierasmarius
 
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Default Re: [Magic] Great Balls of Fire (that can't hit anything)

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Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
Why are missile spells stupid? Because for the investment of 2 CP on their part, another mage renders everything you put into it as worth nothing. Because for the investment of 1 additional CP on their part, another mage kills you with your own magic. Or, if you prefer: Why are missile spells stupid? Because any mage worthy of the name spends their time learning shield, missile shield and reverse missiles instead and so knows very well what happens when people try to shoot mages with missiles. Why do they learn those spells instead? Because there are archers and spear throwers and whatnot who love turning you into a pincushion from a distance. That it neuters missile spells as well is just icing on the cake. Can't cast spells if you're dead, after all.
Enemy wizards are not the only targets for a Missile-spell specialist. And that's ignoring the possibility of Explosive missiles, which don't have to hit the target directly, and are thus unaffected by those particular defenses. Missiles are certainly not optimal in many situations, but that doesn't make them "an utter waste of points".
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Old 06-22-2012, 11:24 PM   #142
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Default Re: [Magic] Great Balls of Fire (that can't hit anything)

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Originally Posted by vierasmarius View Post
Enemy wizards are not the only targets for a Missile-spell specialist.
Shield, Missile Shield and Reverse Missiles are regular spells. They can be cast on others (and they can be enchanted into objects (potentially along with power) to enable anyone with magery 0 to use them). You don't have to be targeting a mage to find your missiles made irrelevant.

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And that's ignoring the possibility of Explosive missiles, which don't have to hit the target directly, and are thus unaffected by those particular defenses. Missiles are certainly not optimal in many situations, but that doesn't make them "an utter waste of points".
Explosive Fireball costs [5] to learn (Ignite Fire > Create Fire > Shape Fire > Fireball > Explosive Fireball) and costs 2 energy for every 1d.

But you don't learn Missile Shield to neuter other mages. You learn it to neuter archers. Missile Shield is both irreplaceable and optimal for its' purpose. What purpose is Fireball and/or Explosive Fireball optimal for? What purpose is Fireball and/or Explosive Fireball irreplaceable for? I can't think of anything. There are many (superior) replacements for both and I can't think of any situation where they are optimal. If they are generally replaceable and they aren't optimal for at least one relatively common situation (in which they aren't replaceable) ... then they remain an utter waste of points. It is more effective to spend those points on an innate attack advantage as you'd already be spending points on the innate attack skill; the very fact that it doesn't cost fatigue makes innate attack a superior replacement.
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Old 06-23-2012, 03:02 AM   #143
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Default Re: [Magic] Great Balls of Fire (that can't hit anything)

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Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
It is more effective to spend those points on an innate attack advantage as you'd already be spending points on the innate attack skill; the very fact that it doesn't cost fatigue makes innate attack a superior replacement.
A slight quibble, but you might not be allowed to buy said IA. The sad part is we are looking at quite possibly the worst missile spells. The better ones (Lightning, Sunbolt, and one other one i can't remember) are barely acceptable (Sunbolt specifically for Missile Shield).

In all honesty, to at least put Fireball on par, dropping Fireball and replacing it with ExFireball, but keeping cost of 1/die would make it useful. It would have a small but niche use, and not too expensive.
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Old 06-23-2012, 04:24 AM   #144
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Default Re: [Magic] Great Balls of Fire (that can't hit anything)

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Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
Shield, Missile Shield and Reverse Missiles are regular spells. They can be cast on others (and they can be enchanted into objects (potentially along with power) to enable anyone with magery 0 to use them). You don't have to be targeting a mage to find your missiles made irrelevant.
I still don't think the existence of an effective defense against missiles in general is a convincing argument that Missile Spells are worthless. If that was true, the entire Scout archetype would be equally worthless.

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What purpose is Fireball and/or Explosive Fireball optimal for? What purpose is Fireball and/or Explosive Fireball irreplaceable for? I can't think of anything.
Missile Spells (whether Fireball, Sunbolt, or a Thrown Spell) are the only long-range weapons available to a mage. Sure, if you're within a range where a Regular or Area spell can be used, great, that will almost certainly be a better choice. But if you're 20 or more yards away, you simply can't use those spells, so you're stuck with a Missile spell as your last choice. Granted, some mages may choose to pick up a thrown or missile weapon to fill the gap, but with their typically low ST they won't do much with that; at least with Missile Spells they can deliver a solid punch, even if it's costlier in FP and cp.

EDIT: Actually, for the specific example of Fireball, it does have one niche that no other spell really covers: setting fires at long range. This usually isn't terribly useful, but if you're battling a giant mummy wrapped in dry cloth, but wielding a long-reach weapon, it can be prudent to ignite him from beyond melee range. An Explosive Fireball can likewise fry a whole group of zombies, even if the direct damage it inflicts isn't huge. 3d could easily set fire to a close-packed half dozen of such enemies.

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It is more effective to spend those points on an innate attack advantage as you'd already be spending points on the innate attack skill; the very fact that it doesn't cost fatigue makes innate attack a superior replacement.
As has been mentioned, that's not generally an option, or it's available only with close GM oversight.

Last edited by vierasmarius; 06-23-2012 at 04:44 AM.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:27 PM   #145
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Default Re: [Magic] Great Balls of Fire (that can't hit anything)

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Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
Shield, Missile Shield and Reverse Missiles are regular spells. They can be cast on others (and they can be enchanted into objects (potentially along with power) to enable anyone with magery 0 to use them). You don't have to be targeting a mage to find your missiles made irrelevant.
Your loading your premise with specific assumptions and then calling it true for all cases.
Not every mage can or will learn those defense spells and those who do cant keep them up on everyone. Even on themselves its -1 for other spells so there is a significant drawback.
Someone with MR will be a lot harder to cast regular spells on but that does not defend them from missile spells.
A lot of opponents are not mages, or even teamed up with one. In fact in my experience most of the time fighting an enemy mage or party with a mage is the exception rather then the norm. Your far more likely to fight undead, animals, non sapient monsters, etc.
Other then direct combat, missile spells have the ability to do something at greater range, this could be setting fires, putting one out, distractions, watering your lawn, etc.

And the final assumption your making is that IA is always an option, when much of the time it is not. Even when it is your assuming no limitations like costs FP on it when many (if not most) magic systems will have that as a required limitation.
That is like assuming all your fighters can buy DR with no limitations and at this point your talking more about a Supers game then typical fantasy.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:54 PM   #146
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Default Re: [Magic] Great Balls of Fire (that can't hit anything)

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Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
Why are missile spells stupid? Because for the investment of 2 CP on their part, another mage renders everything you put into it as worth nothing. Because for the investment of 1 additional CP on their part, another mage kills you with your own magic.
Except of course that since you have your own Missile Shield that doesn't happen. Obviously you shouldn't knowingly use missiles against battle magicians. Obviously. But there are a lot of targets that aren't battle magicians, and some of them have a lot of hit points. The modern iteration of the missile spell does a lot more damage than pretty much any fantasy attack and does it from much farther away than a normal spell. So when you're fighting King Kong or heavily armoured knights, I wouldn't entirely discount the value of missile spells
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Old 06-23-2012, 05:49 PM   #147
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Default Re: [Magic] Great Balls of Fire (that can't hit anything)

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... So when you're fighting King Kong or heavily armoured knights, I wouldn't entirely discount the value of missile spells
9D of damage will ruin anyone's day, that's for sure.
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:11 PM   #148
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Default Re: [Magic] Great Balls of Fire (that can't hit anything)

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Originally Posted by LemmingLord View Post
9D of damage will ruin anyone's day, that's for sure.
And remember that Lightning spells bypass metal armor almost entirely, while explosive spells are resisted by the average of Torso DR and the target's lowest DR. This can give a mage an edge against the Scout's cheaper and more reliable arrow attacks.
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