Modelling Equal Gender Appeal

[Merior]

How do you represent 'a man who even the men want'? (Or, for that matter, 'a woman who even the ladies like'?)


To explain a little more: I have been trying to figure out how to represent someone who can be the 'exception which proves the rule' for the sexuality of others. The best way I could see this represented in the rules would be if the character could use Sex Appeal on/against others regardless of gender.

(Specifically, this need not address the issue of trying to seduce those who lack gender/sexuality entirely.)

However the Sex Appeal skill itself, per B219, says:

"This is the ability to impress those who are attracted to members of your sex."

So far I have considered four way to get around this: Androgynous, Affliction, Perks, and Techniques.

1) The Androgynous option for Appearance could possibly work but it doesn't seem to cause attraction, just appeal. (Which I, admit, may be close enough.)

2) I began to try to figure out how to best model an Affliction which induced a 'Bisexual' Quirk via a Sense Based attack, but gave up quickly when I looked at the potential points cost.

3) Looking in "Power Ups 2 - Perks" I found three perks which come close, but didn't work out upon closer inspection and further thought.

• "Passing Appearance" : The 'Androgynous' version might work (at first), but it is about being mistaken for the 'other' gender rather than attraction as is.
• "Extra Option" : This could perhaps work... if there was an optional rule in existence which permitted bypassing the requirement.
• "Rules Exemption" : Not applicable as the issue isn't regarding an optional rule which has been applied.

4) The last option would be to have it fall under the aegis of a (likely cinematic) technique based off of Sex Appeal. However my knowledge of how to create that, or what any 'default' could or should be, is distinctly lacking.


I am inclined towards the Technique based path, but have gotten stuck. Could anyone suggest how to get this to work using any of these methods or even a different way?

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Merior

2) I began to try to figure out how to best model an Affliction which induced a 'Bisexual' Quirk via a Sense Based attack, but gave up quickly when I looked at the potential points cost.

It's not hugely expensive:

Affliction 1 [10], inflicting a [1] disadvantage, +1%, Malediction -1/yard +100%, Sense-based with Malediction, two senses, -15%, total +86%, [19]. More limitations are clearly possible.

[WingedKagouti]

Originally Posted by Merior

How do you represent 'a man who even the men want'? (Or, for that matter, 'a woman who even the ladies like'?)

The Universal modifier on Appearance from Basic (p 21).

[Rupert]

The 'Androgynous' option is what you're after. If you was merely a non-sexual bonus, you'd want 'Impressive'.

The fact that there's a distinction says that Androgynous is intended to apply to sex appeal, not merely generic reaction bonuses.

[the_matrix_walker]

You're on the right track with Affliction. This also sounds like limited Mind Control.

This is beyond a Perk by my guesstimation.

As a Sex Appeal Technique, you would want to start with a Hard technique with an added special benefit to be able to affect those who are not attracted to the character's gender. I would still assess a penalty in the hard to very hard range (-4 to -7), probably settling on a -5 penalty, making it 6 points to buy this up to full skill (though I am tempted to say the maximum for the technique is Skill-2 to half the penalty, maxing it out at 4 points).

Originally Posted by Rupert

The 'Androgynous' option is what you're after. If you was merely a non-sexual bonus, you'd want 'Impressive'.

The fact that there's a distinction says that Androgynous is intended to apply to sex appeal, not merely generic reaction bonuses.

I disagree with this statement. Androgynous explicitly states the reaction modifier difference but does not reference any exemption from skill limitations. It also doesn't pass the reality test. As an (almost) totally straight man (there is a scale of course), I can tell you that however a person presents, knowledge of their physical sex being opposed to my own will result in my being able to appreciate their appearance, but will not attract me in a sexual way, and I would expect an attempt to "vamp" me would be at significant penalty... YMMV.

[whswhs]

It's my belief that Rupert is right and Matrix Walker is wrong.

In the first place, Sex Appeal is not "the skill of seducing someone." You can use any Influence skill to approach someone sexually: Diplomacy to ask politely if they're interested, Fast-Talk to give them a line (like the man in "Baby, It's Cold Outside"), Intimidation to threaten or pressure them, Savoir-Faire to make them feel complimented that someone high-class is interested (or to suggest that it would be rude to say no), Streetwise for bad boy/girl appeal. And you can use Sex Appeal to ask for all sorts of things: not just "will you sleep with me?" but "can I get into this club?" or "will you give me a job?" or "let me buy this at a discount." All this is spelled out in Social Engineering.

In fact, you can use Sex Appeal to tease people, or make them uncomfortable or nervous.

And because of that, in the second place, you can use Sex Appeal on someone who, knowing your actual sex, would not want to be physically involved with you. In that case, what you are doing is presenting yourself in a way that they find attractive and respond to on an emotional level, even if at an intentional level they don't intend to act on that attraction. Being Androgynous enables you to appeal in that way to people who are attracted to either sex, and also to pass for either sex with relatively little difficulty.

In fact, it's conceivable that someone who has certain forms of Intolerant might know that an Androgynous person was the wrong sex for them, but react to their Sex Appeal rolls, and at the same time have a negative reaction modifier because the situation creeps them out.

[the_matrix_walker]

As I know this can be a hot-button of a subject, please accept my apology if I use the terms 'sex' or 'gender' in a less than perfectly thought out way.

Originally Posted by whswhs

It's my belief that Rupert is right and Matrix Walker is wrong.

In the first place, Sex Appeal is not "the skill of seducing someone." You can use any Influence skill to approach someone sexually: Diplomacy to ask politely if they're interested, Fast-Talk to give them a line (like the man in "Baby, It's Cold Outside"), Intimidation to threaten or pressure them, Savoir-Faire to make them feel complimented that someone high-class is interested (or to suggest that it would be rude to say no), Streetwise for bad boy/girl appeal. And you can use Sex Appeal to ask for all sorts of things: not just "will you sleep with me?" but "can I get into this club?" or "will you give me a job?" or "let me buy this at a discount." All this is spelled out in Social Engineering.

In fact, you can use Sex Appeal to tease people, or make them uncomfortable or nervous.

Sex Appeal specifically works on those "attracted to your sex". Androgynous does not alter the character's sex.

I'm afraid I don't have Social Engineering. Is there something in there that changes the basic skill description, or that of Androgynous?

I took the OP's statement of " 'a man who even the men want'?" as a specific desire for romantic/sexual desire from someone presenting as the gender the subject is not attracted to.

Originally Posted by whswhs

And because of that, in the second place, you can use Sex Appeal on someone who, knowing your actual sex, would not want to be physically involved with you. In that case, what you are doing is presenting yourself in a way that they find attractive and respond to on an emotional level, even if at an intentional level they don't intend to act on that attraction.

That doesn't jibe with the skill description in the Basic Set.

I'm aware these things can evolve as the system grows. I can only base my answers on the materials I have access to.

Originally Posted by whswhs

Being Androgynous enables you to appeal in that way to people who are attracted to either sex, and also to pass for either sex with relatively little difficulty.

Attractive appearance appeals to anyone, that doesn't enable Attractive people to use Sex Appeal on their own sex.

The case we are talking about has made no indication of trying to pass for one gender or the other, simply how those react to the character on what I assume is a regular basis. I believe they are looking to be sexually compelling to both genders, regardless of their current gender presentation.

If you are Androgynous and present yourself as a particular gender convincingly, your sex appeal works normally against those attracted to the gender presented and will not work on those attracted to the opposite.

Originally Posted by whswhs

In fact, it's conceivable that someone who has certain forms of Intolerant might know that an Androgynous person was the wrong sex for them, but react to their Sex Appeal rolls, and at the same time have a negative reaction modifier because the situation creeps them out.

Again, this must be something new in Social Engineering... Based on the Basic Set description, Sex Appeal does not work on someone not attracted to your gender.

Say you have a pair of people of different sexes, and both are Beautiful/Handsome with Androgynous... if we assume they have the same Sex Appeal skill level, I do not believe they would both have the same chances of seducing a straight person, and I do not see "being straight" as having a an Intolerance.

[bocephus]

Originally Posted by Merior

How do you represent 'a man who even the men want'? (Or, for that matter, 'a woman who even the ladies like'?)


To explain a little more: I have been trying to figure out how to represent someone who can be the 'exception which proves the rule' for the sexuality of others. The best way I could see this represented in the rules would be if the character could use Sex Appeal on/against others regardless of gender.

(Specifically, this need not address the issue of trying to seduce those who lack gender/sexuality entirely.)

Barring the game mechanics of what your working on, can I ask how you think this will be represented at the table?

Are you the GM making a special NPC or a player planning to invest CP and push certain narratives a certain way.

Are you trying to force a situation where you get to dictate that a PC or NPC "IS" attracted to you, like over riding choice?

It seems like your trying to find an edge case where you can bypass the rules of "I just don't feel attracted to this character" choice, by pushing a "how can you say that when you don't know which sex I am" answer. The answer to that is, "only attracted to overtly feminine/masculine characters" which is not a middle ground. Sure if you appear to be overtly feminine and aren't there might be some super backlash once the truth comes out, but I get the feeling your trying to bypass exactly this scenario.


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Sex attraction is something that I (when I'm GM) never dictate to a PC and absolutely never allow it as a contest where a Player might be pushed to play their character in a way they don't want to (has nothing to do with "comfort" its purely about player choice). In general I don't let PCs or NPCs make sex appeal rolls against other PCs, unless the target PC is unsure of how they would react and that PLAYER chooses to just "use the dice" and go with it. I understand that some people are ok with this at the table, but I discourage it. RP games are complicated enough without adding this in to the mix. When players move a scene that direction, I use the "Fable II" rule. Once the scene has moved past PG-13 its just fade to black, pickup after the scene is over (which might be just as the angry husband/wife/lover/etc bursts into the room weapon in hand to kill off their rival, as PC lays in some state of undress and tangled limbs)

I get about the same amount of enjoyment from RP sex as I do from RP shopping, RP End of Year reviews, or RP Logistics. Sometimes the scene makes sense, but lets don't make it a center piece of the game. Unless there is a super crit/fail that offers some unique piece of information/narration, its hand wavy all the way, lets get back the the actual game.


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You have to know your table, and maybe all the people present can handle it and would be ok with it. Im not judging that, I have played in games that people were a lot more into the sex aspects of RP.

I have seen it done well, in one case it was being used as a 'non-magical' sort of mind control (influence) in a combative way. It was more like an attack than a seduction. It fit the story and the table very well and honestly it was part of the story instead of making the story about sex.

Most of the time it ends up used for shock or generally juvenile titillation, and does nothing to enhance the RP or advance the story.

I was present once where it went HORRIBLY wrong. It broke the group up permanently it went so bad. Multiple people were offended and irritated from many different sides and it was just unrecoverable once it happened. It was a situation that started out with a char build not too far off from what your talking about and a player insisting that another player had to be attracted to them because 'rules'. One player was trying to "rule lawyer" an impasse in the interest of keeping the peace. The GM felt like every one was an adult and it was just a game and pretty much wanted to them to sort it out. Two other players were 'taking sides' and two players just wanted skip it, but the initial player had invested CP and time into the build (and keeping it secret from the group, which we were all ok with) and felt cheated and rejected by people the didn't think it was fun and cool idea.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Merior

How do you represent 'a man who even the men want'? (Or, for that matter, 'a woman who even the ladies like'?)

Let's bear in mind first of all that what that expression literally describes is Very Beautiful/Handsome. Such people do get a big reaction bonus even from the those not normally attracted to their sex. Add androgynous and you get someone who can use Sex Appeal on just about everyone except people with certain intolerances. (Even then it's not that it won't work so much as they're likely to get violent shortly afterward.)

That being said, it would be fair to say that a non-androgynous person probably could use Sex Appeal on most people, just at a penalty based on just how straight they are. I'd say for more people it's less "fixed reaction" than -10 difficulty for using Sex Appeal for lesser manipulations than actually trying to get a straight person into bed with you.

[Donny Brook]

Is it supposed to be something particular to one or more characters and different from the setting background, or something generally found in-setting? If the latter, just remove the sex-differentiation in the attractiveness traits for that setting.