[Spaceships] Multiple levels of Hardened on Armor and Force Screens?

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

"Hardened" against all sources of armor divisors is probably too abstract for really detailed vehicular combat. High-Tech notably doesn't use it for laminated composites.

Very true. Realistically, anything that would make something better at stopping everything with an armor divisor would also make it better at stopping everything without an armor divisor, i.e. give it higher DR.

In a detailed and realistic system, any form of Hardened should have (only versus #weapon type#).

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by RyanW

Very true. Realistically, anything that would make something better at stopping everything with an armor divisor would also make it better at stopping everything without an armor divisor, i.e. give it higher DR.

Not entirely, though it's not clear that Hardened is a coherent mechanic. The basic way almost all armor piercing attacks work involves delivering the same amount of energy in a smaller area, and there's types of armor you can imagine which don't care much about how focused the energy is. In particular, cinematic force screens are often impenetrable until overloaded, and overloading is an issue of total energy delivery.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Anthony

In particular, cinematic force screens are often impenetrable until overloaded, and overloading is an issue of total energy delivery.

If you go back to E.E.Smith as Gurps main source for "overload, radiate and/or fail" force screens you do see local penetrations before total failure when certain intense beam types (including needle rays and not just Primary beams) do this.

On the other hand, Star Trek "shields" usually stop everything until they go down.

On the gripping hand you get the peculiar behavior of Traveller's "Black Globes" and you see why they're useless. They hamper you as much as they do your enemies and they only stay up as long as they can store the energy they stop and then they blow you up. Logically that should mean the first nuke detonated next to but not inside a Black Globe should be a perfect killer.

[Pursuivant]

There's also the Cosmic Armor switch mentioned in text of SS1 p. 31. This multiplies armor dDR by 10x, which effectively counts as 4 levels of Hardening.

[sir_pudding]

Since the OP had mentioned force screens and shaped charges, I think it's probably reasonable for any hard force screen that stops the warhead from making hull contact would effecitvely nullify any HEAT rounds, since it can't presumably spall an energy field, and any space between the field and the hull would be a baffle.

So any shaped-charge warheads intended to be effective would need some way to penetrate the screen before detonating.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

So any shaped-charge warheads intended to be effective would need some way to penetrate the screen before detonating.

MS-HEAT rounds (multistage) seem like they should do the trick, at least so long as the first warhead is able to penetrate the shield. If there's a great deal of distance between the shield and the target I suspect those would also fail, but that would probably mean the shield would be at +1 to hit relative to the target.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Varyon

MS-HEAT rounds (multistage) seem like they should do the trick, .

Some "force screens" that protect from solid objects do so by energetically destroying all solid objects they contact. This wuld probably destroy both warheads at the same time.

Also, while the velocity of HEAT jets is rdidiculous by current ground combat standards they are not that high by space KE weapon standards. Even the light TL9 Missiles default to 10 miles per second of Delta-v and heavy Missiles are twice that.

HEAT warheads are okay if you're doing some sort of short-range Gundam near-space combat but in the long range models that appear to make up the bulk of Spaceships they should probably just be forgotten about.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Some "force screens" that protect from solid objects do so by energetically destroying all solid objects they contact. This wuld probably destroy both warheads at the same time.

"Energetically destroying all solid objects they contact" kind of sounds like what happens when reactive armor gets activated, and MS-HEAT is meant for dealing with that; I don't see why, if the first warhead can punch a hole into the screen, the second wouldn't be able to get through it to reach the ship. If the "force screen" isn't something you can punch a hole into, such as if it actually represents a large active defense battery, then it shouldn't have DR, and shouldn't really be treated as a GURPS force screen.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Also, while the velocity of HEAT jets is rdidiculous by current ground combat standards they are not that high by space KE weapon standards. Even the light TL9 Missiles default to 10 miles per second of Delta-v and heavy Missiles are twice that.

HEAT warheads are okay if you're doing some sort of short-range Gundam near-space combat but in the long range models that appear to make up the bulk of Spaceships they should probably just be forgotten about.

I agree - for typical spaceship combat, using HEAT (or any warhead other than either kinetic or nuclear/antimatter) is largely going to be a waste of time, as the velocities involved will result in a dumb kinetic impactor having more energy than any conventional explosive. The mention of HEAT made me assume this thread was more along the lines of using Spaceships to design other vehicles, however.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Varyon

"Energetically destroying all solid objects they contact" kind of sounds like what happens when reactive armor gets activated, and MS-HEAT is meant for dealing with that;

HEAT does this by detonating at a stand-off distance of a few 10s of centimeters but less than 2 meters. That's inside of "knife-fighting" range for Spaceships. Kind of close even for "fingernail fighting".

Reactive plating isn't anything like "energetic destruction". It involves solid steel plates moving even slower than the HEAT jets. It does a comparatively subtle defocusing and deflection of the HEAT jet.

[sir_pudding]

I'm fairly sure this is for an IFV that does orbit to surface operations.