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Old 02-25-2022, 11:59 AM   #1
Prince Charon
 
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Default [Low-Tech] Smallsword with the Bronze Age 'Rapier?'

The earliest historical swords, or some of the earliest (the khopesh is almost as old, and is about as much and axe as a sword), were basically narrow long knives that archaeologists call 'bronze age rapiers' - here's a google image search of them. Lindybeige has a roughly four-minute video with some replicas as part of a series on Mick Skelly's collection. They seem to have started in the Middle East around 1700ish BCE and spread out from there, reaching Britain around 1550ish BCE (as opposed to the later leaf-bladed swords, which may have been invented in Ireland and spread west).

Anyway, it's pretty clear that you wouldn't use the Rapier skill with those, or most other examples, but the ones that we have often seem stabby enough for the Smallsword skill to work, and might even work better than Knife or Shortsword (although as noted in the video, you can chop with them). The question in my mind is, is it plausible for a skill that could reasonably be called Smallsword to have been invented during TL1, without that being too cinematic?

My first thought is that sword skills would have evolved from the Knife skill as the blades got longer, but it occurred to me just now that some martial arts styles I've seen write-ups for in GURPS use Smallsword and other sword skills with a baton or a short staff, so it could be that a skilled stick-fighter handling one of these new-fangled 'really long knives' noticed that it handled a lot like a sharpened stick, but was less prone to breakage, and thus adapted that skill to the new weapon.


Thoughts?
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Old 02-25-2022, 12:40 PM   #2
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Smallsword with the Bronze Age 'Rapier?'

Well, the whole fencing skill distinction is kind of unrealistic. A weapon is better at parrying if its center of mass is close to the hilt (which has a side effect of low swing damage) and if it's held in the forward hand (which has a side effect of being unable to use a shield), which makes it an appropriate choice when social effects limit the use of armor, shields, and two-handed weapons.
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Old 02-25-2022, 01:04 PM   #3
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Smallsword with the Bronze Age 'Rapier?'

The short staff is TL1 and uses the Smallsword skill, so certainly the skill could exist. But when I look at your Google Image search results, many of the swords that archaeologists seem to be classifying as "bronze age rapiers" are not actually all that thin, and I'm not sure any are as thin as what's normally called a smallsword.
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Old 02-25-2022, 01:07 PM   #4
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Smallsword with the Bronze Age 'Rapier?'

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Originally Posted by Prince Charon View Post
T

Thoughts?
Your question is very detail dependant.

http://irisharchaeology.ie/2015/07/b...-co-meath-bog/

With this one the answer is probably no. It's only 16 inches long and has what's known as a "stub" hilt which is a system that originated with stone knife and spear heads.

The two rivet holes are an advancement but I still don't think it was made with parrying in mind. Bronze is softer than the sword steels we're used to and banging thin bronze weapons agaisnt each other is contra-indicated. It's a so-so idea even with good steel.

I can see a medial ridge so there was some thought to keeping the blade rigid but that's important even just for offense. I woiuld want something longer and stronger looking (particularly aroud the hilt) before i tried to indulge oiin sophisticated offense and defense.

Some of the other pictures show blades with full tangs and they might be tough enough.
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Old 02-25-2022, 09:15 PM   #5
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Smallsword with the Bronze Age 'Rapier?'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Charon View Post
The earliest historical swords, or some of the earliest (the khopesh is almost as old, and is about as much and axe as a sword), were basically narrow long knives that archaeologists call 'bronze age rapiers' - here's a google image search of them. Lindybeige has a roughly four-minute video with some replicas as part of a series on Mick Skelly's collection. They seem to have started in the Middle East around 1700ish BCE and spread out from there, reaching Britain around 1550ish BCE (as opposed to the later leaf-bladed swords, which may have been invented in Ireland and spread west).

Anyway, it's pretty clear that you wouldn't use the Rapier skill with those, or most other examples, but the ones that we have often seem stabby enough for the Smallsword skill to work, and might even work better than Knife or Shortsword (although as noted in the video, you can chop with them). The question in my mind is, is it plausible for a skill that could reasonably be called Smallsword to have been invented during TL1, without that being too cinematic?

My first thought is that sword skills would have evolved from the Knife skill as the blades got longer, but it occurred to me just now that some martial arts styles I've seen write-ups for in GURPS use Smallsword and other sword skills with a baton or a short staff, so it could be that a skilled stick-fighter handling one of these new-fangled 'really long knives' noticed that it handled a lot like a sharpened stick, but was less prone to breakage, and thus adapted that skill to the new weapon.


Thoughts?
The Knife or Shortsword skill (depending on size) would be more appropriate. These improperly called "rapiers" were actually capable of dealing cutting blows as much as thrusts.
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Old 02-25-2022, 09:31 PM   #6
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Smallsword with the Bronze Age 'Rapier?'

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The Knife or Shortsword skill (depending on size) would be more appropriate. These improperly called "rapiers" were actually capable of dealing cutting blows as much as thrusts.
The non-Bronze age swords actually called "rapiers" were capable of both cuts ands thrusts too. The standard Gurps thrust only Rapier is a historical chimera. There were some thrust only smallswords but even those weren't the rule.
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Old 02-25-2022, 09:56 PM   #7
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Smallsword with the Bronze Age 'Rapier?'

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
The non-Bronze age swords actually called "rapiers" were capable of both cuts ands thrusts too. The standard Gurps thrust only Rapier is a historical chimera. There were some thrust only smallswords but even those weren't the rule.
With these improperly called "rapier" I'm actually referring to them: the Bronze Age "rapier" swords. Not to GURPS Rapier.
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Old 02-25-2022, 11:41 PM   #8
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Smallsword with the Bronze Age 'Rapier?'

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Originally Posted by Rasna View Post
With these improperly called "rapier" I'm actually referring to them: the Bronze Age "rapier" swords. Not to GURPS Rapier.
I was trying to indicate that it was not the ability to both cut and thrust that made these "improper" rapiers.
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Old 02-26-2022, 01:46 AM   #9
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Smallsword with the Bronze Age 'Rapier?'

The longest one so far uncovered was found at Zafer Papoura on Crete and is 1.16m long. These swords tend to have a thick medial ridge because it is the simplest way to get the metal to reliably flow all the way along the mold. They can be used for cutting but the medial ridge prevents the edge from biting very deeply. I don't think they are balanced the same as a rapier and they weren't intended for blade-to-blade combat so probably shouldn't use the Fencing skill. The best research into the functionality of these was done by Barry Molloy. He reckons that the battle damage on extant examples is consistent with sword-on-shield impact, not sword-on-sword impact.
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Last edited by DanHoward; 02-26-2022 at 04:08 AM.
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Old 02-26-2022, 01:57 AM   #10
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Smallsword with the Bronze Age 'Rapier?'

So the basic concept is a narrow bronze thrust-only knife- or sword-like weapon?

Use the stats for an Estoc, Tuck, or Large/Small Stiletto depending on length, change the material to Bronze, adjust damage and breakage stats as appropriate, and change TL from 3 or 4 to 1.

While the GURPS melee weapons catalog is extensive it isn't comprehensive. When you run across an oddball weapon think which existing weapons come closest, then fiddle with the stats as necessary.
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