One-Spell Magery question

[maximara]

I was looking at One-Spell Magery and was wondering if No Spell Prerequisites, +30% is part of it or if you have to learn spells you otherwise couldn't use to use the one (or collection) of spells One-Spell Magery?

[Plane]

Originally Posted by maximara

I was looking at One-Spell Magery and was wondering if No Spell Prerequisites, +30% is part of it or if you have to learn spells you otherwise couldn't use to use the one (or collection) of spells One-Spell Magery?

I think you would need to learn them as "Unusable Prerequisites", the same as you might with one-college magery having requirements outside that college.

OSM might more commonly apply to partially limited magery, such as I have Magery 3 (no limitations) and then buy an extra level of magery for 2 points just to buff up my fireball.

The only thing I don't understand is why people would opt to pay 4 points per skill if you can pay 2 points per magery in that skill.

[WingedKagouti]

Originally Posted by Plane

The only thing I don't understand is why people would opt to pay 4 points per skill if you can pay 2 points per magery in that skill.

The default recommendation is to cap Magery at level 3 (with special rules for DF). Skill in an individual spell has no such recommended cap.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by Plane

I think you would need to learn them as "Unusable Prerequisites", the same as you might with one-college magery having requirements outside that college.

Probably this, unless you have the Charm perk for that spell (which is more point-efficient, and is plausible if you're born with One-Spell Magery for that spell). You could perhaps have a magical style (or a magical/martial arts style) that grants Shortcut to Power and OSM, instead, as long as the style is believable enough.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Plane

The only thing I don't understand is why people would opt to pay 4 points per skill if you can pay 2 points per magery in that skill.

This is confusing as under Partially Limited Magery the limitations must be applied to Magery 0 for the terms to mean what they say.

So Magery 0 (One-Spell -80%) is [1] not [5]
Magery 0 (75%: One-Spell -80%, 2 spells) is [2] not [5]
and so on.

So Thaumatology effectively took a sledgehammer to how magery with limitations and enhancements work.
This does mean that the cost of Racially innate spells Magery 0 is [3] not [5].

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by Plane

I think you would need to learn them as "Unusable Prerequisites", the same as you might with one-college magery having requirements outside that college.

OSM might more commonly apply to partially limited magery, such as I have Magery 3 (no limitations) and then buy an extra level of magery for 2 points just to buff up my fireball.

The only thing I don't understand is why people would opt to pay 4 points per skill if you can pay 2 points per magery in that skill.

Because most real mages aren't Johnny One Spells and will want full magery as high as the setting will allow.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Plane

The only thing I don't understand is why people would opt to pay 4 points per skill if you can pay 2 points per magery in that skill.

The truth is mages rarely spend *any* points on improving a single spell.

Every mage I've ever seen in play has had 1 point in almost all of their spells. It's simply not worth it to spend points to raise one vs improving Magery, or IQ, or the return on buying an additional spell for an entirely new capability. Occasionally somebody will have one or two spells they use all the time that they'll put 2 or 4 points into, but enough to hit the 4/level region? I'm sure somebody must have done it, but it's vanishingly rare.

The entire Magery and spell system simply isn't balanced for improving individual spells to make sense, and never has been. Spells are just too specialized, and the return on investment given the harsh range penalties for most of them, is just too small to make that worthwhile either - it'll cost you 20 points to make a spell work as well at a distance 1 turn of movement away from you as does at touch.

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by malloyd

The truth is mages rarely spend *any* points on improving a single spell.

Every mage I've ever seen in play has had 1 point in almost all of their spells. It's simply not worth it to spend points to raise one vs improving Magery, or IQ, or the return on buying an additional spell for an entirely new capability. Occasionally somebody will have one or two spells they use all the time that they'll put 2 or 4 points into, but enough to hit the 4/level region? I'm sure somebody must have done it, but it's vanishingly rare.

The entire Magery and spell system simply isn't balanced for improving individual spells to make sense, and never has been. Spells are just too specialized, and the return on investment given the harsh range penalties for most of them, is just too small to make that worthwhile either - it'll cost you 20 points to make a spell work as well at a distance 1 turn of movement away from you as does at touch.

If you're putting a bunch of points into one spell, it's not usually for range, it's to reduce cost or half the casting time.

Kromm has on occasion mentioned his 3e necromancer, Dr Kromm, who had Zombie 50, good enough to cast instantly (when that was a thing) and for free (it cost 8 in 3e). Mind you, in 3e the cap was 2/level for a Hard (mental) skill, so it was a lot easier.

I haven't done it personally, but Johnny One Spell was a thing in 3e where you spent all your points into one spell and used it primarily. Flame Jet was popular.

[Emerikol]

Originally Posted by malloyd

The truth is mages rarely spend *any* points on improving a single spell.

Every mage I've ever seen in play has had 1 point in almost all of their spells. It's simply not worth it to spend points to raise one vs improving Magery, or IQ, or the return on buying an additional spell for an entirely new capability. Occasionally somebody will have one or two spells they use all the time that they'll put 2 or 4 points into, but enough to hit the 4/level region? I'm sure somebody must have done it, but it's vanishingly rare.

The entire Magery and spell system simply isn't balanced for improving individual spells to make sense, and never has been. Spells are just too specialized, and the return on investment given the harsh range penalties for most of them, is just too small to make that worthwhile either - it'll cost you 20 points to make a spell work as well at a distance 1 turn of movement away from you as does at touch.

I noticed this too. I addressed some of it in the design of my own magic system for the coming campaign. I limit magery and IQ. Though I use college skills and techniques for individual spells.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by WingedKagouti

The default recommendation is to cap Magery at level 3 (with special rules for DF). Skill in an individual spell has no such recommended cap.

Originally Posted by corwyn

Because most real mages aren't Johnny One Spells and will want full magery as high as the setting will allow.

I guess I mean in settings without a magery cap.

Originally Posted by maximara

Magery 0 (75%: One-Spell -80%, 2 spells) is [2] not [5]

We should probably just list that as (Two-Spell -75%)

Originally Posted by maximara

Thaumatology effectively took a sledgehammer to how magery with limitations and enhancements work.

One of the major problems I see in the writeups is the lack of emphasis about probably the most important aspect of Magery 0 : the ability to cast spells in Normal/Low mana.

B66's closest thing to that is probably here:

basic “magical awareness,” a prerequisite for learning magic in most worlds

Still it uses the verb "learn" rather than "cast". We don't really see the emphasis on what Magery 0 means until the magic section on B235, which definitely changes the verb emphasis:

Anyone can learn most spells – although in some worlds, you must be a mage to use the spells you know

T21's Limited Magery 0 doesn't exactly help with what it emphasizes in its first 2 paragraphs either:

This stipulation exists because simply having Magery – however limited – can be useful. Notably, the rules assume that even under conditions that prevent the mage from casting spells (e.g., at night if he has the Day-Aspected limitation), he can detect enchantments and use mage-only magic items. Thus, it follows that limitations might reasonably reduce the point cost of Magery 0 if they restrict these abilities as well as spellcasting.

Magery 0 gives spellcasting abilities though: someone with non-limited Magery 0 [5] could possibly be much better off than someone with Magery 1 (Aspected) costing >5 because in Normal Mana they can cast without restrictions... the only thing they'd be missing is the faster spell learning, ability to learn spells with magery 1+ prereqs, the +1 IQ talent for the spell, and 'magery and effect' which mostly just affects missile spells at low levels.

Paragraph 3 communicates differently and better IMO:

Those with limitations only on Magery above 0 can always cast spells and sense
and use items normally

The only issue I take is with this example:

She can detect and use magic items, and cast spells that don’t have Magery 1+ as a prerequisite, whenever she wants

GURPS needs to clarify whether prereqs are for "learning" or "casting" as they are very different ideas.

Originally Posted by maximara

This does mean that the cost of Racially innate spells Magery 0 is [3] not [5].

B453 seems worded with the old interpretation of limiting magery 1+ affecting what Magery 0 can normally do (allow you to cast any spell in Normal Mana)

"Racially Innate Spells Only -40%" is priced the same as "One College Only" but when you think what it actually works like it's probably via T67's approach to Power Investiture...

a) "Inspired Learning +20%" (since they're just born with it and don't actually learn from books)

b) "No Spell Prerequisites +30%"

For that +50% to work out to net -40% kinda demands -90% in limitations, which puts you even beyond One-Spell Magery. Though obviously it doesn't make sense to enhance your entire magery to ignore prereqs if all you're getting is a single spell since there's probably a different path there.