Realistic Human DR

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by malloyd

*Damage* isn't realistic. That pretty well prevents making any kind of call about things that modify it like DR.

I think that most people would agree that the effects of single injuries on a human-like character in GURPS is usually plausible and moderately specific ("left arm crippled and Major Bleeding" not "fracture of the radius and ulna at the ... with damage to the ... arteries"). We can contrast this with eg. damage in D&D where its never even clear what a "hit" means or how we should visualized someone surviving a fireball.

Given that baseline, we can move on to ask whether the effect of modified DR would be plausible.

[Fred Brackin]

[QUOTE=Polydamas;2480630

Given that baseline, we can move on to ask whether the effect of modified DR would be plausible.[/QUOTE]

I think it is extremely difficult to simulate a boxing match or an American Football game without at least a pt or two of DR:Crushing only.

Even if you play around with the effects of padded gloves or football pads effectively reducing almost all impacts to 0 damage you then end up having to explain why a guy off the street can't do that.

Even if you abandon simulating sports events you're still left with different levels of unarmed combat ability and training and that "guy off the street" v. "trained athlete type" problem.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

I think that most people would agree that the effects of single injuries on a human-like character in GURPS is usually plausible and moderately specific.

Eh... no, not really. The core problem is that you either have to make injury non-cumulative, or you have to make it extremely random -- for example, 'roll a d6 to determine wounding modifier'

1. x1/8
2. x1/4
3. x1/2
4. x1
5. x2
6. x4

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Even if you abandon simulating sports events you're still left with different levels of unarmed combat ability and training and that "guy off the street" v. "trained athlete type" problem.

Quite. See, here's the ultimate thing, folks: GURPS, like every other game system out there, works with fiats. While GURPS officially strives for greater realism, playability just takes a front seat a good bit more often than we quite realize.

A 275-lb linebacker slamming me (63 yrs old, not remotely in shape) to the ground with all his might would cripple or even kill me; a professional running back is expected to withstand up to a couple dozen such impacts a Sunday, and do it all over again next week. A professional heavyweight boxer punching me with all his might would put me in the hospital for a good long while at least; his peers take up to a hundred or more such blows a match, and are expected to withstand them and keep on fighting. Suggesting that they have DR 2 and I don't, and that they might have HT 14 and I've got HT 9, doesn't within a couple orders of magnitude accurately or adequately map the difference mathematically.

I've no idea by how many times I'm more fragile than a boxer (five? ten? twenty?), but I sure as hell know I'm a lot closer to that higher number than the GURPS baselines for our respective types would reflect. We can't justify or defend the discrepancy without looking like idiots, and perhaps we shouldn't try. It's a fiat; let's just roll with it.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

A professional heavyweight boxer punching me with all his might would put me in the hospital for a good long while at least; his peers take up to a hundred or more such blows a match, and are expected to withstand them and keep on fighting

Pretty sure the majority of those punches are low-power jabs not full-power crosses.

[Polydamas]

Punching is special because its almost a deliberately ineffective way to injure someone. Nobody wise would run a long boxing match blow-by-blow in GURPS (boxing rules and equipment are designed to make the fight last long, GURPS combat assumes people are trying to end it as quickly as possible), so the question to ask is "does this DR give plausible outcomes when people are trying to hurt or disable each other with fists, bludgeons, and edged weapons."

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

Suggesting that they have DR 2 and I don't, and that they might have HT 14 and I've got HT 9, doesn't within a couple orders of magnitude accurately or adequately map the difference mathematically.

I think it does (and remember that the football players' Sport or Sumo Wrestling skill gives them a bonus to slams, the boxers have bonuses to punching from skill. etc.)

[mr beer]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

A professional heavyweight boxer punching me with all his might would put me in the hospital for a good long while at least; his peers take up to a hundred or more such blows a match, and are expected to withstand them and keep on fighting. Suggesting that they have DR 2 and I don't, and that they might have HT 14 and I've got HT 9, doesn't within a couple orders of magnitude accurately or adequately map the difference mathematically.

Few blows in a boxing match are at both full power and squarely connecting with the target. Boxers move around a lot, keep their arms in the way and tend to be shifting away as punches land. When one heavyweight does land a full power hit squarely on his opponent, it often ends the fight right there.

TL;DR Boxers aren't just eating 100s of punches that would KO a normal person.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Anthony

GURPS performance against armor is simultaneously too predictable and too unpredictable. Whether an attack penetrates a given thickness of armor plate is pretty predictable. How much armor plate is actually in front of an attack is not.

Base HP damage isn't just raw kinetic energy, it's also the exact angle and location where that energy is delivered, relative motion of attacker and defender, and a bunch of other little things. A low dice roll for damage means a glancing blow or a blow which strikes the thickest part of DR at an unfavorable angle. A high roll means a "partial critical hit" which strikes armor in a weak spot or at just the right angle to penetrate.

Realistically, unless the attack is truly massive, armor is going to turn impaling, cutting, or piercing damage into crushing damage. There's an option to do just that in one of the GURPS Low Tech books.

Even more realistically, damage for various weapons should be given an averaged HP dice value with +/-10-20% above or below that. That's easily modeled by rolling 1d instead of the usual damage dice, with 1: -20%, 2: -10%, 3-4 no modifier, 5: +10%, 6: +20%.

I'm not sure your average player would tolerate not being able to roll dice for damage, however! Roll to hit/dmg. is one of the oldest and most satisfying RPG mechanics there is.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

A professional running back is expected to withstand up to a couple dozen such impacts a Sunday, and do it all over again next week.

Assuming that he's not so badly injured that he's out for the next game(s), out for the season, or crippled for life. There's also cumulative trauma like TBI and joint injuries which pro contact sport athletes willingly accept for money and glory. They might need knee replacements when they're 35 and die from traumatic encephalitis when they're 50, but, hey, they played in the NFL and made big money for a few years.

Mitigating potential damage is the fact that pro football players aren't trying to kill each other. Rules and professional courtesy prevent the most damaging forms of tackling and padding and high Breakfall technique from Sport (American Football) further limits injury.

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

A professional heavyweight boxer punching me with all his might would put me in the hospital for a good long while at least; his peers take up to a hundred or more such blows a match, and are expected to withstand them and keep on fighting.

A heavyweight prizefighter can easily kill an untrained civilian with a punch. In GURPS terms, it would be an All-Out (Strong) attack, delivered as a devastating punch to the jaw with high damage dice rolls (representing perfect technique and victim being in just the right spot for maximum damage) and then very bad rolls for Knockout and survival.

Most punches delivered in a boxing match are parried or "jammed" so they do minimal damage (because a fighter can't develop maximum power with his punches). Other punches are delivered at less than full power as part of a Feint or similar set-up.

Most boxing matches (especially at the lower weight classes and non-professional levels) are won by decision, many pro heavyweight fights end with a knockout or TKO. In any case, both fighters are a mass of bruises the next day and usually aren't in fit shape to fight again for several weeks.

The extra HP, improved HT, and Fit/Very Fit advantages that boxers have, plus Boxing (Sport) skill keeps them alive and on their feet during sporting contests. Most MMA or similar full-contact fights, which are the closest thing our culture has to legal unarmed combat, are far shorter affairs with one fighter being knocked out or otherwise decisively defeated within a few minutes. They track far more closely to GURPS combat.