Did Infinity start the nuclear war on Reich-4?

[fchase8]

Something I noticed from GURPS Infinite Worlds. On pg. 63, it states that the Infinity patrol discovered Reich-5 16 years ago (2011 Homeline/1994 Reich-5). Since it's the fifth Reich world discovered, presumably the other Reichs were found more than 16 years ago.

On Reich-4, current year 1988, Germany launched a nuclear first strike in 1979, eventually leaving it the de facto ruler of the world. That was nine years ago - thus, Infinity would have found Reich-4 before the nuclear war.

Thus - could Infinity have had a hand in starting Reich-4's nuclear war? Pg. 63 also mentions Infinity's proposed "Operation Dandelion" (likely named after the similar plan in The Man In the High Castle), provoking a German-Japanese nuclear war before mounting an invasion. Could Reich-4 have been a 'dry run' by Infinity?

[Varyon]

Is it canonical that time "flows" at the same rate between alternates? If Reich-4 were found in the same year as Reich-5, but time flows more slowly there, Infinity may have only discovered it a few years ago.

Alternatively, it could be that Infinity discovered and catalogued it prior to the 1979 nuclear exchange, but were uninvolved in it. Or even recognized what was coming and tried to stop it but failed.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I Or even recognized what was coming and tried to stop it but failed.

Infinity also has no motive to start a nuclear war on Reich-4 or 5. Reich-5 would "win" and be pushed towards greater extremism.

If Homeline Russia is run by a version of Putin they might have done it. Russia has phobias about Nazis and has already screwed up on Reich-5.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Infinity also has no motive to start a nuclear war on Reich-4 or 5. Reich-5 would "win" and be pushed towards greater extremism.

It could have been something accidental - a brief bit of online research (I lack the referenced book) indicates the war was a response to unrest in the rest of the world, which Homeline might have had reason to have caused (in hopes of weakening Nazi Germany's hold on the world, but it backfired). Or, as you note (and I suggested as one possibility), Homeline was completely uninvolved and basically just watched what was going on.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

If Homeline Russia is run by a version of Putin they might have done it. Russia has phobias about Nazis and has already screwed up on Reich-5.

It's possible they're running a long game - what I found indicates Reich-4's Germany is struggling to maintain control outside of its nominal borders in the aftermath of the nuclear war (where previously their allies handled things), which may have been the intended consequence. Sounds like a bit of a stretch, however - trying to figure out a way to take out Nazi Germany and failing spectacularly sounds more likely.

[fchase8]

I just discovered that Reich-1 is in 1952, which would even 16 years ago was before the divergence point (BEF destroyed at Dunkirk).

So, possibly the timelines aren't labeled in order of discovery.

Maybe Reich-5 was actually earlier/first Reich world discovered, but because it's secret, it gets renumbered every time another, public Reich world is found.

(or this all was an oversight by GURPS...)

Originally Posted by Varyon

Is it canonical that time "flows" at the same rate between alternates? If Reich-4 were found in the same year as Reich-5, but time flows more slowly there, Infinity may have only discovered it a few years ago.

I believe technically time moves a little different (thus the different years), but not enough to be noticeable, save for fast-moving Blip.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Alternatively, it could be that Infinity discovered and catalogued it prior to the 1979 nuclear exchange, but were uninvolved in it. Or even recognized what was coming and tried to stop it but failed.

Originally Posted by Varyon

It could have been something accidental - a brief bit of online research (I lack the referenced book) indicates the war was a response to unrest in the rest of the world, which Homeline might have had reason to have caused (in hopes of weakening Nazi Germany's hold on the world, but it backfired). Or, as you note (and I suggested as one possibility), Homeline was completely uninvolved and basically just watched what was going on.

The war began over a dispute over Persian Gulf oil, but Nazi Germany had been planning it, was able to decapitate the Japanese state with a first strike. But there was still massive destruction even on the 'winning' side.

It does seem most likely a native nuclear war, but perhaps Infinity didn't do anything to stop it. There's no mention of Infinity doing anything to help post-nuclear war Reich-4, topple that weakened Nazi Germany (would be a big task to undertake).

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Infinity also has no motive to start a nuclear war on Reich-4 or 5. Reich-5 would "win" and be pushed towards greater extremism.

Infinity worries that advanced Reich-5 could discover parachronics, and become a threat to Homeline and the rest of the multiverse. Any Nazi Germany (or Imperial Japan) would be so wrecked by nuclear war to no longer be a threat to Homeline.

Infinity has the plan Firefall to make a massive strike on Reich-5, and the Dandelion plan to encourage nuclear war on Reich-5, and then strike.

These come direct from GURPS Infinite Earths - I messed up and misattributed them to the wrong book in the original post.

Reich-4 wasn't as advanced as Reich-5, but nuclear war could be seen as 'nipping the problem in the bud'.


Starting nuclear war is very, very extreme - more Centrum than Infinity. But Infinity is clearly terrified of Reich-5 learning The Secret.

And not without reason, as some in Reich-5 did! They've been keeping it secret from the rest of the Nazi hierarchy, but are already causing major problems on a number of Quantum 3 worlds, and that's without a working conveyors, just able to pull it off with psychics & magic.

[ehrbar]

So, when GURPS Alternate Earths was printed, the "current year" for Homeline was 2015, and the current years for the Reich lines were:

Reich-1: 1951.
Reich-2: 1954.
Reich-3: 1970.
Reich-4: 1988.
Reich-5: 1994.

So, in theory, when the Homeline date advanced to 2027, those should have become

Reich-1: 1963.
Reich-2: 1966.
Reich-3: 1982.
Reich-4: 2000.
Reich-5: 2006.

Instead, with Infinite Worlds, the dates were given as:

Reich-1: 1952.
Reich-2: 1961.
Reich-3: 1970.
Reich-4: 1988.
Reich-5: 2010.

The descriptions of the worlds with the associated numbers in Infinite Worlds remained basically consistent with the Alternate Earths writeups . . . and as a result, the inconsistent time-changing indeed results in the implication that Reich-1 was discovered and named a Reich line before its World War II happened.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by fchase8

These come direct from GURPS Infinite Earths - I messed up and misattributed them to the wrong book in the original post.

R.

You're still halfway out. You need to complete your journey from Alternate Earths to infinite Worlds.

I think Infinity already knows Reich-5 has broken out along the Chronobahn so there's no Secret there to be preserved. They may even know that SS Raven Division is a rogue outfit so destroying the parent organisation it steals funds from is an inefficient way to attack them.

[fchase8]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

You're still halfway out. You need to complete your journey from Alternate Earths to infinite Worlds.

Whoops - I got it right when I edited my mistake in the original post...

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I think Infinity already knows Reich-5 has broken out along the Chronobahn so there's no Secret there to be preserved. They may even know that SS Raven Division is a rogue outfit so destroying the parent organisation it steals funds from is an inefficient way to attack them.

Infinity seems aware of Reich-5 parachronic activities, and I guess can deduce that The Secret is kept secret from higher-ups, as otherwise Reich-5 would be a lot more active parachronically.

But Raven Division doesn't know how to do parachronic tech, which is a lot more effective than magic or psychics - and Reich-5 is more technologically advanced than Homeline, so in theory could do conveyors & projectors better.


That's the biggest fear: That central Nazi command would learn The Secret, learn parachronic tech, and go all-out on their own dimensional war. That's what bringing on nuclear war on Reich-5 would be about preventing.

Indeed, as noted in Infinite Worlds, a major reason for not enacting Firefall or Dandelion is that, in the ensuing chaos, The tech Secret would get out, and preventing that is the whole point.

Yes, The Secret is a bit out on Reich-5, but mostly still Secret. Infinity is probably more scared of Raven Division leaking The Secret to their superiors than whatever those few Nazis can do on the Chronobahn.

Originally Posted by ehrbar

The descriptions of the worlds with the associated numbers in Infinite Worlds remained basically consistent with the Alternate Earths writeups . . . and as a result, the inconsistent time-changing indeed results in the implication that Reich-1 was discovered and named a Reich line before its World War II happened.

Way to harsh my amazing 'discoveries'...


I guess the simplest explanation is that the Reich timelines aren't numbered in order of discovery.

I bet they don't have these issues at Interworld...

[ehrbar]

And looking further . . . all five Reich lines actually go back to the 1991 GURPS Time Travel, p.91, with dates of "early 1950s" for the first two, then 1970, 1988, and, for "Reich 5", 1995.

So when the 1988 Reich timeline was first invented in Time Travel, it was quite possible that Infinity was behind its war, if out-of-character for how Infinity was described in the book. Since it wasn't designated Reich-4 yet, and the year of its nuclear war wasn't specified, there was a lot of possibility.

When it was firmed up as Reich-4 in Alternate Earths, this became very difficult, but still technically possible; its nuclear war was nine years ago, and it was definitively discovered after the Reich-1 line that had its divergence point 11 years earlier in its timeline.

Now, as of Infinite Worlds, we run into continuity snarls, and so it's hard to make any definitive statements.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by fchase8

I believe technically time moves a little different (thus the different years), but not enough to be noticeable, save for fast-moving Blip.

I did a bit of digging into it when starting Infinite Cabal, and found that things just weren't consistent with a constant rate of time. So I had time passing at different speeds in different worlds, although Blip was a special case.