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Old 11-16-2021, 06:43 PM   #1
MrFix
 
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Default [High Tech/Tactical Shooting] Reloading Your Shotgun

Majority of shotguns with internal magazines have (2i) statistic. Meaning it takes 1 Ready Action to draw a shot, 1 Ready Action to insert it.

Fast-Draw (Ammo) reduces this by 1 second per 3 cartridges, or fraction of thereof. So rolling Fast-Draw (Ammo) while reloading shaves off 0.33 seconds. Now one bullet is loaded into the gun in 1.66 seconds.

Question 1: What happens to to the .66? Round up to 2? Round down to 1? If it's round up to 2, doesn't that mean Fast-Draw is useless in such scenario?
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Quick-Reload (Internal Magazine) shaves off 25% from reload time AFTER adjustments for Fast Draw. 1.66*0.75=1.245

Quick Reload states resulting number is rounded up, but with minimum savings of 1 second.

That means that Fast-Draw (Ammo) and Quick Reload (Internal Magazine) reload 1 shot in 1 seconds

Question 2: Did I get it all right?
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Let's assume that our shotgun now has 2 slots for ammo instead of 1, and it takes 4 rounds to reload 2 shots.

Double-Loading states that success at it shaves off 1 second per 2 cartridges, in addition to effects of Fast-Draw.

4 rounds, modified by Fast-Draw, becomes 3.33. Modified by double-loading becomes 2.33. Modified by Quick Reoad, 2.33*0.75 becomes 1.7475 round up, but with minimum saving of one second.

Question 3: Did I get it all right? My character can reload two shots of a shotgun as 1 Ready action?
-----------------------------------------
My shotgun now has 6 shots. It takes 12 seconds to reload it.
10 Seconds with Fast-Draw
7 seconds with Double Loading
5 Seconds with Quick Reload

Question 4: Since reloading two-shot shotgun fully takes me 1 ready action, can I roll Double-Loading three times to reload my 6-shot shotgun in 3 seconds instead of 5?
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Martial Arts allows Multiple Fast-Draws for weapons at -2 per weapon, thrown weapons are given as example, and on success all the drawn weapons are ready in your hand.

Question 5: Would rolling Fast-Draw at an extra -10 (for 5 shots drawn after first 1) allow me to cut the reload time by 50%, since instead of drawing 6 shots separately, I drew them as one big pile, ready in my hand, skipping the "draw" part and moving straight to "load"?


Did I get it all right? Am I going nuts?
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Last edited by MrFix; 11-16-2021 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 11-16-2021, 07:51 PM   #2
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Default Re: [High Tech/Tactical Shooting] Reloading Your Shotgun

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Majority of shotguns with internal magazines have (2i) statistic. Meaning it takes 1 Ready Action to draw a shot, 1 Ready Action to insert it.

Fast-Draw (Ammo) reduces this by 1 second per 3 cartridges, or fraction of thereof. So rolling Fast-Draw (Ammo) while reloading shaves off 0.33 seconds. Now one bullet is loaded into the gun in 1.66 seconds.

Question 1: What happens to to the .66? Round up to 2? Round down to 1? If it's round up to 2, doesn't that mean Fast-Draw is useless in such scenario?
1 second per 3 cartridges means that it takes 5 seconds to reload 3 cartridges, rather than 6. I'd probably handle this as each Fast-Draw results in the third cartridge taking only 1 second; a harsh GM will reset the counter if you take any action other than reloading. The pattern here would be 2-2-1-2-2-1, and so forth (that "or fraction thereof" mention may mean 1-2-2-1-2-2 is more appropriate, the GM would have to make that call).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Quick-Reload (Internal Magazine) shaves off 25% from reload time AFTER adjustments for Fast Draw. 1.66*0.75=1.245

Quick Reload states resulting number is rounded up, but with minimum savings of 1 second.

That means that Fast-Draw (Ammo) and Quick Reload (Internal Magazine) reload 1 shot in 1 seconds

Question 2: Did I get it all right?
Sounds right, yeah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Let's assume that our shotgun now has 2 slots for ammo instead of 1, and it takes 4 rounds to reload 2 shots.

Double-Loading states that success at it shaves off 1 second per 2 cartridges, in addition to effects of Fast-Draw.

4 rounds, modified by Fast-Draw, becomes 3.33. Modified by double-loading becomes 2.33. Modified by Quick Reoad, 2.33*0.75 becomes 1.7475 round up, but with minimum saving of one second.

Question 3: Did I get it all right? My character can reload two-barrels of a shotgun as 1 Ready action?
I don't think so. First off, I think double-barreled shotguns don't have internal magazines, but we'll ignore that (as well as the fact that, if they did, you wouldn't really be able to reach both slots for filling them at the same time like you can with a double-barreled shotgun, which I think is what double-loading is making use of; EDIT: checking Tactical Shooting, Double-Loading is fine for the tube magazine of a single-barreled shotgun, so you can do this with one of those). 3.33 seconds means it takes 4 seconds (round up) to reload the first two cartridges, 3 seconds for the next two (total 6.67 seconds, round up to 7, which is 3 more than the previous), 4 seconds (total 11.0) for the next two, then it repeats, following the pattern 4-3-4-4-3-4 and so on. Double-loading makes this 3-2-3-3-2-3 instead. So, Quick-Reload would probably make it 2-1-2-2-1-2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
My shotgun now has 6 shots. It takes 12 seconds to reload it.
10 Seconds with Fast-Draw
7 seconds with Double Loading
6 Seconds with Quick Reload

Question 4: Since reloading two-barrel shotgun fully takes me 1 ready action, can I roll Double-Loading three times to reload my 6-shot shotgun in 3 seconds instead of 6?
Fully reloading your shotgun should, as in the above case, take 5 seconds, in the pattern 2-1-2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Martial Arts allows Multiple Fast-Draws for weapons at -2 per weapon, thrown weapons are given as example, and on success all the drawn weapons are ready in your hand.

Question 5: Would rolling Fast-Draw at an extra -10 (for 5 shots drawn after first 1) allow me to cut the reload time by 50%, since instead of drawing 6 shots separately, I drew them as one big pile, ready in my hand, skipping the "draw" part and moving straight to "load"?
That rule is meant for thrown weapons and the like, but ammo could benefit as well (indeed, I think those rules are used for drawing multiple arrows at once for DWA (Bow), although that is of course rather cinematic). Drawing 6 bullets at once I'd be inclined to let reduce things by 50%, as you note. That means a pattern of 1-1-1 (0.5 rounds up to 1).
(EDIT: Again, checking Tactical Shooting, Double-Loading's default of -2 implies it's actually making use of the Multiple Fast-Draws rule, so you can't "stack" them. Drawing more than 2 rounds at once could indeed justify a further reduction in reload time, however. Just use the same amount of time for each step as it takes with double-loading, but reload however many rounds you grabbed. So, let's look at 6 cartridges into a tube magazine. Normally, you're looking at 12 seconds to reload all 6 - 2-2-2-2-2-2. With Fast Draw, that's instead 10 seconds - 2-2-1-2-2-1. With Fast-Draw and Double Loading reduces this to 8 seconds - 3-2-3, reloading 2 cartridges at each step. Add in Quick Reload, you can cut this down to 5 - 2-1-2. With Fast Draw, Quick Reload, and grabbing 3 at a time (for an additional -2), you'd cut things down to 3 or 4 seconds (-1 relative to using Double Loading) - either 2-1 or 2-2 (grabbing 3 cartridges at each step; I'd be inclined to go with 4 seconds, 2-2). Grabbing 6 cartridges at a time lets you reload all 6 in only 2 seconds, albeit at a further -8 relative to Double Loading. EDIT2: This is probably cinematic above 3 cartridges)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Did I get it all right? Am I going nuts?
I don't think you're going nuts, although you are exhibiting some symptoms of MUNCHKIN Syndrome.
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Last edited by Varyon; 11-16-2021 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 11-16-2021, 08:04 PM   #3
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Default Re: [High Tech/Tactical Shooting] Reloading Your Shotgun

You got it wrong in third example. Two shot shotgun takes 4 seconds to reload. Fast Draw explicitly says to retain fractions.

4-0.66=3.33 (fast draw)
3.33-1=2.33 (double loading)
2.33*0.75=1.7 something
1.7 something rounds up to 2, and quick reload cuts it down to 1.
This is because reloading with all these abilities is one continuous action. Since it takes 5 seconds to reload 6 shots, each shot consumes 0.75 seconds, and each loading motion loads 2 shells. At no point in the process can reloader only load 1 shot
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Last edited by MrFix; 11-16-2021 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 11-16-2021, 08:16 PM   #4
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Default Re: [High Tech/Tactical Shooting] Reloading Your Shotgun

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
You got it wrong in third example. Two shot shotgun takes 4 seconds to reload. Fast Draw explicitly says to retain fractions.

4-0.66=3.33 (fast draw)
3.33-1=2.33 (double loading)
2.33*0.75=1.7 something
1.7 something rounds up to 2, and quick reload cuts it down to 1.
Quick Reload isn't "Multiply by 0.75, then subtract 1." It's "Multiply by 0.75, or subtract 1, whichever results in less reload time." 2.33 rounds up to 3, thus dropping down to 2 shaves off 1 second (just like going from 2.33 - rounds up to 3 - to 1.7 - rounds up to 2). Note my suggestion did retain fractions (but rounded the total up for each step, as GURPS doesn't handle fractional seconds) - essentially, I had it at 1.33 seconds per step, hence the 2-1-2 pattern (1.33, 2.67, 5.0).
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Old 11-16-2021, 08:20 PM   #5
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Default Re: [High Tech/Tactical Shooting] Reloading Your Shotgun

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Quick Reload isn't "Multiply by 0.75, then subtract 1." It's "Multiply by 0.75, or subtract 1, whichever results in less reload time." 2.33 rounds up to 3, thus dropping down to 2 shaves off 1 second (just like going from 2.33 - rounds up to 3 - to 1.7 - rounds up to 2). Note my suggestion did retain fractions (but rounded the total up for each step, as GURPS doesn't handle fractional seconds) - essentially, I had it at 1.33 seconds per step, hence the 2-1-2 pattern (1.33, 2.67, 5.0).
double loading has no business rounding up to 3 in the middle of equation to find out final reload time. All applicable mathematical acts should unfold before that. Thats how GURPS works baseline with stuff like point costs.

Equation is such
(Time to reload X - (number of shots / 3, retain fractions) - (number of shots / 2, drop fractions))*0.75. round up but minimum saving of 1 second from quick reload = final time to reload.

Calculating patterns for reloads mid play is extensive process and slows the game down greatly.

If you round up after every step, Fast Draw becomes useless for 1 and 2 shot guns.
Edit
Also worth noting, basic set states that fast draw ammo has minimum saving of 1 second too, meaning that a man with just fast draw should be able to reload 1 shot in 1 second
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Last edited by MrFix; 11-16-2021 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 11-16-2021, 09:25 PM   #6
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Default Re: [High Tech/Tactical Shooting] Reloading Your Shotgun

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
double loading has no business rounding up to 3 in the middle of equation to find out final reload time. All applicable mathematical acts should unfold before that. Thats how GURPS works baseline with stuff like point costs.

Equation is such
(Time to reload X - (number of shots / 3, retain fractions) - (number of shots / 2, drop fractions))*0.75. round up but minimum saving of 1 second from quick reload = final time to reload.
... in which case you aren't looking at going from 2.67 seconds to 1 second (as you suggested), you're looking at going from 2.67 seconds to 1.67 seconds (as I suggested). How you handle fractional seconds is up to the GM, of course - my inclination is to retain the fraction but round up - that is, a 1.67 second reload takes 2 seconds, the next brings this to 3.33 seconds for a total of 4 seconds (+2), and the next brings it to 5.00 seconds (+1).

I think the authors of High Tech assumed characters needing to reload would basically duck behind cover and reload multiple shots before getting back into action, hence things like shaving off 1 second every 3 cartridges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Also worth noting, basic set states that fast draw ammo has minimum saving of 1 second too, meaning that a man with just fast draw should be able to reload 1 shot in 1 second
The specific overrides the general, although personally I think the "reload time" that gets at least a second shaved off of it is "the time to fully reload the weapon," not "the time to reload each individual shot." That is, think of a shotgun with a 6-shot internal magazine as having a reload time of 12 (which gets more than a second shaved off - it gets 2 seconds shaved off, reducing it to 10 seconds), not a reload time of 2. Regardless, the authors of High-Tech wouldn't have written the bit about shaving off 1 second for every 3 cartridges if it were actually shaving off 1 second for every cartridge.

Also... take a look again at Quick-Reload in Tactical Shooting. It specifically states how long each of Double-Barreled Shotguns and internal-magazine shotguns take to reload with Fast-Draw alone, Double-Loading, and Double Loading + Quick-Reload. For Double-Barreled Shotguns, this is 4 seconds per full reload (both cartridges) with Fast-Draw (a double-barreled shotgun with an ejector takes 5 seconds to fully reload, not 4 - see HT87), 3 seconds with Double-Loading, and 2 seconds if you add on Quick-Reload. For a 5 shot internal magazine, it's 8 seconds with Fast-Draw, 6 seconds with Double-Loading, and 5 seconds with Quick-Reload. Note a 6 shot internal magazine would change these to 10 seconds, 8 seconds, and 6 seconds, respectively.
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Old 11-16-2021, 09:45 PM   #7
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Default Re: [High Tech/Tactical Shooting] Reloading Your Shotgun

I am not talking about double barrels
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Old 11-16-2021, 09:51 PM   #8
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Default Re: [High Tech/Tactical Shooting] Reloading Your Shotgun

Where is the rule you guys are talking about?
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Old 11-17-2021, 06:26 AM   #9
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Default Re: [High Tech/Tactical Shooting] Reloading Your Shotgun

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
I am not talking about double barrels
That's... great. Most of my post talked about shotguns with internal magazines.

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Where is the rule you guys are talking about?
Away from my books at the moment, but most of this is from Tactical Shooting, which has the Quick-Reload Perk (which I believe is also in PU2) and the Double-Loading Technique (which may have originated in HT). The base reload times are from High Tech. Both sets of rules seem to be working under the assumption of characters doing a full reload in one go, and don't really give advice on how to handle things if the character is basically reloading individual cartridges between other actions. Legalistically, because HT states Fast-Draw with an internal magazine (which is normally 2 seconds per reloaded cartridge) shaves off a second per 3 cartridges or fraction thereof, there's nothing preventing a rules-lawyery player from saying "I reload 1 cartridge," taking 1 second (2 per cartridge, -1 for Fast Drawing 3 or fewer cartridges), then the next second saying "I reload 1 cartridge," taking 1 second again. The intent seems to be more along the lines of "I'm 2 shots shy of full, I'll use Fast-Draw to reload, taking 3 seconds" or "I'm out of shots in my 5-round magazine, I'll use Fast-Draw to reload, taking 8 seconds."
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Old 11-17-2021, 03:26 PM   #10
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Default Re: [High Tech/Tactical Shooting] Reloading Your Shotgun

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Away from my books at the moment, but most of this is from Tactical Shooting, which has the Quick-Reload Perk (which I believe is also in PU2) and the Double-Loading Technique (which may have originated in HT). The base reload times are from High Tech. ...
Those are the places I looked and couldn't find the reference for Fast-Draw (Ammo).
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