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Old 07-26-2021, 08:51 AM   #11
maximara
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Default Re: [Magic] Development of Spell-based Magic through TL0

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While I prefer Syntactic, Symbolic, and Path/Book magics, this thread assumes that the standard system is in use, and if they were using Syntactic or Symbolic already, there would be little reason to switch over to the standard system.
This is exactly one of my issues with Merlin-1 (Technomancer) Syntactic or Symbolic magic should have been the rule given "The first people who tried to cast spells were those who had been doing so all along: Voudounistas, shamans, practitioners of witchcraft and ceremonial magic, and those who believed they had psychic powers. If they were one of the few pre- Hellstorm mages, their disciplines began to produce repeatable effects. "

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I do agree with you on the effective prices being much lower ('effective' because money wasn't invented yet in TL0).
It is important to remember that "money" is only an intermediary good when barter just isn't up to it.

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EDIT: For purposes of this thread, assume that it is very much possible to invent new spells without a lab, it's just harder. However, most spells in the early parts of TL0 were created (sometimes repeatedly) by someone having Wild Talent with Retention, being born with the Charm perk for that spell, or some other bypass. Also, not sure if it's said in the books, but I tend to assume that magical research is easier the higher the local mana level is (and that Aspected mana affects this, as it affects casting).
I know that for alchemy with regards to very high mana that is the case. Thaumatology suggests using the New Inventions (B473-474) rules for spells. But I think for what you want Classic: Ice Age might be our go to.

Classic: Ice Age had a whole chapter on Shamanism and Magic. Some snippets:

"Spirits are creatures made up entirely of mana. ... They are highly intelligent and can be bargained with by powerful shamans who can command their respect."

"Magic items in shamanistic magic are not tools manufactured by wizards. Rather, they have inherent magical or spiritual power, affecting anyone who touches or uses them. Such items are very rare, and always natural in origin, though they may have been reshaped by humans. "

The book says it provides 16 spells for the Pleistocene Epoch (2,580,000 to 11,700 years ago) but if you count them you only get 15 not 16. (7 on one page 8 on the other.):

Aura, Banish, Bless, Curse, Death Vision, Divination (3 types), Exorcism, Healing, Pestilence, Remove Curse, Remove Pestilent Object, Spirit Trap, and Summon Spirit. Of these only 5 don't require Magery 2.

So this points to very small spell books until Pre-Pottery Neolithic ~10,000 years ago. This makes some sense as Mesolithic (8500 BCE+, or close to your Pre-Pottery Neolithic) has when food storage, houses, and settled communities appear. (pg 6) This would allow the building of labs to do more spell research.
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Old 07-26-2021, 09:43 AM   #12
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Default Re: [Magic] Development of Spell-based Magic through TL0

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This is exactly one of my issues with Merlin-1 (Technomancer) Syntactic or Symbolic magic should have been the rule .
These did not exist when Technomancer was written though they did have soem rather vague 3e predecessors.

At any rate, Technomancer was an example of a setting created for a set of rules i.e. Gurps Magic and not for "magic like in the real world only it produces tangible results".
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Old 07-26-2021, 12:07 PM   #13
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Default Re: [Magic] Development of Spell-based Magic through TL0

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These did not exist when Technomancer was written though they did have soem rather vague 3e predecessors..
"Rather vague?" If anything with exception of Supers the various alternatives were insanely detailed.

"Improvisational magic" was heavily developed by the time the 2e Classic: Magic came out (1994) some 4 years before Technomancer (1998)

"Rune-magic is a method of producing “improvised” scrolls and enchanted items using these symbols. It may only be learned by a mage. " (1994 Classic: Magic pg 90)

The Clerics using mana as if they were mages was in Magic and Religion with its alternative came out the same year and it suggested changing or dropping prerequisite chains.

Voodoo's Ritual Magic was insanely detailed (it went overboard IMHO) and Technomancer certainly knew of its existence as it specifically said it didn't exist on that world.

The problem is Ice Age is a very old book (1989) and as mentioned before it said "Spirits are creatures made up entirely of mana. ... They are highly intelligent and can be bargained with by powerful shamans who can command their respect."

Combining Ice Age where Spirits were mana (as would be done in 4e with Roma Arcana) with a gutted version of Voodoo produces something reasonable close to 4e's mana based Ritual Magic system.

All the pieces to what would become 4e ritual magic were there when Technomancer was being produced. Technomancer has anotehr weird hiccup. Despite the flavor text on pg 13 where a character uses "a rune-carved wand" it says on pg 77 Rune magic doesn't exist in that world. So why would any magic item on Merlin-1 be "rune-carved" if rune magic doesn't work?!

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At any rate, Technomancer was an example of a setting created for a set of rules i.e. Gurps Magic and not for "magic like in the real world only it produces tangible results".
Rune magic is also in Gurps Magic and Ice Age used spirits as mana so this kind falls flat on its face. Only by clumsily closing the door on Rune magic (ignoring earlier flavor text where someone uses rune magic) did the book excluded the most logical form of magic that would have existed on Merlin-1
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Old 07-26-2021, 12:54 PM   #14
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Default Re: [Magic] Development of Spell-based Magic through TL0

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" Technomancer has anotehr weird hiccup. Despite the flavor text on pg 13 where a character uses "a rune-carved wand" it says on pg 77 Rune magic doesn't exist in that world. So why would any magic item on Merlin-1 be "rune-carved" if rune magic doesn't work?!
Because it's _flavor text_.

Runes are not game mechanically significant as they are in the Rune Magic variant of the standard system but they may still be part of the non-mechanically significant trappings.

As another example see the serpent carvings mentioned in the Item descriptions for the Minor and Major Healing wands. They are there to _suggest_ the cadeuceus and not to make invoking the power of the cadeuceus the only way to create healing items.
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Old 07-28-2021, 05:37 PM   #15
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Default Re: [Magic] Development of Spell-based Magic through TL0

I think we've reached the point where I should post the idea that had me start this thread, so I can decide if it needs its own (it probably does, as this thread is specifically tied to the spell-based system, and the idea isn't):

Where does all the bizarre magical life in a setting come from? Perhaps some evolved naturally, but that isn't necessarily true for all of them. Some might be the result of critical failures (e.g. a demon appears and attacks the caster, and is either driven off, escapes, or wins, and sticks around this world, or marks it as a place to return to) or critical successes (e.g. an often-repeated spell to give a horse wings becomes permanent and inheritable). Others might have been intentional creations: some spirits might be the result of a caster making an illusion or Phantom (probably with Independence and Initiative, if we're talking about the standard system) permanent, and material beings could result from a permanent Shapeshifting or Creation effect (though if elves or dwarves are the result of permanent 'Create Servant' or 'Shapeshift' variants cast by humans, they probably aren't going to admit it).

One example that occurs to me and fits this thread's setting is that the Create (<element>) Elemental spells might have an alternative prerequisite path, something like 'Magery 2, nine spells of that element, and Create Servant.' The Summon (<element>) Elemental and Control (<element>) Elemental spells could have been invented later.


Thoughts?
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Old 07-29-2021, 06:46 AM   #16
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Default Re: [Magic] Development of Spell-based Magic through TL0

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Where does all the bizarre magical life in a setting come from? Perhaps some evolved naturally, but that isn't necessarily true for all of them.
I think we need to step further back. Where do the magical energies themselves come from? Did they exist all along or were they the product of some experiment that went totally haywire in the distant pass?

If the first than perhaps natural aspected manastones exist and are the basis material components for spells or how the first spells were cast.
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Old 07-29-2021, 03:10 PM   #17
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Default Re: [Magic] Development of Spell-based Magic through TL0

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I think we need to step further back. Where do the magical energies themselves come from? Did they exist all along or were they the product of some experiment that went totally haywire in the distant pass?

If the first than perhaps natural aspected manastones exist and are the basis material components for spells or how the first spells were cast.
I'd prefer to go with the first for this thread, as the second requires an advanced civilization to have created them when they didn't, and then become extinct so that a new sapient species need to evolve to use the energies that they created. The latter is way beyond the scope of this thread, though it could be an interesting (if depressing) idea for another thread if you want to make it.

Natural Aspected manastones are an interesting idea too, and do fit this thread.
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Old 07-29-2021, 06:00 PM   #18
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Default Re: [Magic] Development of Spell-based Magic through TL0

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Expanding on the above a bit, what do you think the magical significance of Göbekli Tepe might have been in this setting?
I was thinking the same thing.

Ideas:

* It could be a place of power set on a Very High Mana Zone.

* It could be the source of some sort of portable magical energy like Paut or Ars Magica's "Vis".

* It could be a community of mages or other magical specialists, sustained by magic or by donations/gifts/tribute from non-mages in the surrounding area.

* It could be a community of non-humans who either shun humans or keep them as slaves or servants.

* It could be a community of ghosts, sustained by the link to their bones (which were buried beneath the floors of their former dwellings).

* It could be a place of sacrifice or worship, where magical power or effects are generated by various human activities.

* It could be the magical equivalent of a library where ancestral spirits abide. Would-be mages access ancestral magical knowledge by handling their ancestors' skulls, which are stored on site.

* It could be a prison where malign supernatural entities, or the spirits of evil mages, are imprisoned. The deliberate burial or destruction of some parts of the site could be parts of a containment or banishment rituals.
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Old 08-10-2021, 09:54 PM   #19
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Default Re: [Magic] Development of Spell-based Magic through TL0

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I'd prefer to go with the first for this thread, as the second requires an advanced civilization to have created them when they didn't, and then become extinct so that a new sapient species need to evolve to use the energies that they created. The latter is way beyond the scope of this thread, though it could be an interesting (if depressing) idea for another thread if you want to make it.

Natural Aspected manastones are an interesting idea too, and do fit this thread.
Ok. But there is still the issue of what makes things magical. Is it an elemental particle like on Merlin-1 or something else? Is it a finite source that is replenished by something like sunlight, life energy, connection to extra dimensional planes of existence (such as with AD&D1 - See note 4 of GURPS magic systems in D&D)

These might sound nitpicky but they serve the same purpose as setting up the story behind a dungeon before you draw your first room as outlined in "Dungeons and Prisons" in Dragon #23, March, 1979 - much better than using random generation, which generally results in places that look like something Lum the Mad would build if he was a "spark" while he was high and/or drunk.

For that at a natural level, imagine how dangerous something that a predator evolved the innate spell Aura would be or worst Mind Control. Of course that would mean there would be prey with high Magic Resistance.
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Old 08-10-2021, 11:23 PM   #20
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Ok. But there is still the issue of what makes things magical.
Depends on the setting (or rather, what the GM and players want it to be). For purposes of this thread generically, the mana field is a natural particle field that exists on this Earth (GURPS Technomancer called them 'oz particles,' IIRC), and may extend beyond it. The higher the particle density in an area, the higher the mana level.
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