How to make magic use friendlier?

[dfinlay]

Originally Posted by FF_Ninja

Side question: If you dislike the GURPS Magic system so much, what makes it so odious? If there was a system that did magic well, what system, and why in particular? Just curious.

So, I personally think Peter was somewhat overstating the issues with GURPS Magic, but as I am not a fan of the system either, I will state where my biggest issues with it are:

1. It is a specific setting's magic system (Yrth, if I'm not mistaken). By this, I mean that there are all sorts of assumptions baked into the system that are difficult to remove from it or to reverse engineer (GURPS: Thaumatology helps some, but it's still not as flexible as alternatives). If you want a system with those exact assumptions (say, because you are playing in Yrth) or just want a magic system without really caring how it works, this isn't an issue. If you want a system that emulates a specific idea in your head or a fictional setting's magic, it's not ideal. While this doesn't make it a bad system, it makes it a bad system to be the default system for a game like GURPS.
2. Spending points on magic tends to get more bang for your buck than spending them on other things in terms of versatility and power.
3. Spending points on some parts of magic (IQ and Magery in particular, but several others as well) gives you way more bang for your buck than spending points on other parts of Magic. The breakpoints specific spell levels doing certain things is part of this as you really want your spells at those levels. All of GURPS is somewhat guilty of this, but the Basic Magic system much more so.

I find that the Magic as Powers, Sorcery and Ritual Path Magic systems do better at these things (especially at the first) than Basic Magic does, but they do have their own issues. (Magic as Power and Sorcery really emphasize mages with limited spell lists, though Sorcery allows some improvisation and RPM really emphasizes generalists. Plus RPM can become OP at very high point values and requires a lot of rolling. Additionally, their customizability comes at the cost of a lot of GM prep work getting them how (s)he wants them to work).

I am certainly not saying "don't use Basic Magic". In many ways, it's the easiest to get set up since most of the decisions are already done for you. Just know what you are getting when you do it.

[FF_Ninja]

I'll be honest. All of the research I've done over the last couple of days regarding the GURPS magic system has led me to wonder if I picked the right system to sink my teeth into so many months ago. I don't know how it works for other genres (I expect it handles mundane elements far better than mystical ones), but this one is the pits.

I mean, I like data. I partially like how Magic has so much laid out. I just wish, like most of you said, it could pay a little more attention to the "G" in GURPS.

I almost wish there was a way to invest points in the magic colleges (or something like them). I like how many spells exist and how they're laid out - you can more or less accomplish nearly any effect you want with the current spell list, all eight-hundred-plus of them - but they're not very-well structured.

Maybe I should take a weekend and pull apart the spell lists, then put them back together in a college structure that makes sense, with prerequisites to match. Maybe generate some new spells that fill out the missing gaps (namely, higher-end, elaborate spells). Hmm.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by FF_Ninja

I almost wish there was a way to invest points in the magic colleges (or something like them). I like how many spells exist and how they're laid out - you can more or less accomplish nearly any effect you want with the current spell list, all eight-hundred-plus of them - but they're not very-well structured.

You can.
There is a variant called Ritual Magic right in Basic that describes buying each College as its own skill.
Specific spells are based off that with penalties based on the perequisite count and I think you buy that off as Techniques. The latter might be a House rule, cant recall.
The magic system in GURPS Basic and GURPS Magic is the oldest part of GURPS, its remained almost the same since First Edition about 30 years ago.
Its hard to come up with a good generic magic system.
So many types of Fantasy use magic with little in common.
GURPS has a LOT of different systems.
College Magic from Basic also known as Hawthorne Magic.
Ritual Path magic from Monster Hunters and it got its own book.
Sorcery has its own book and is a Powers approach.
Divine Powers
Then there are several ideas for systems in Thaumatology.
Check out this page for ideas and read the free preview PDFs to get the table of contents and a crude idea for each.
Tell us what your looking for and we can offer our opinions on the best fit.

[Mithlas]

Originally Posted by dfinlay

basic magic is...

1. It is a specific setting's magic system (Yrth, if I'm not mistaken). By this, I mean that there are all sorts of assumptions baked into the system that are difficult to remove from it or to reverse engineer (GURPS: Thaumatology helps some, but it's still not as flexible as alternatives). If you want a system with those exact assumptions (say, because you are playing in Yrth) or just want a magic system without really caring how it works, this isn't an issue. If you want a system that emulates a specific idea in your head or a fictional setting's magic, it's not ideal. While this doesn't make it a bad system, it makes it a bad system to be the default system for a game like GURPS.
2. Spending points on magic tends to get more bang for your buck than spending them on other things in terms of versatility and power.
3. Spending points on some parts of magic (IQ and Magery in particular, but several others as well) gives you way more bang for your buck than spending points on other parts of Magic. The breakpoints specific spell levels doing certain things is part of this as you really want your spells at those levels. All of GURPS is somewhat guilty of this, but the Basic Magic system much more so.

Magic as Power and Sorcery really emphasize mages with limited spell lists, though Sorcery allows some improvisation and RPM really emphasizes generalists. Plus RPM can become OP at very high point values and requires a lot of rolling. Additionally, their customizability comes at the cost of a lot of GM prep work getting them how (s)he wants them to work).

That explanation makes a great deal of sense, thanks for laying it out like that. I don't know anything about Sorcery and Ritual Path Magic, but I know that Magic as Powers can deal with almost any setup, though this takes a lot of effort since you basically have to build it from the ground up. The price for being able/having to exactly match an idea. I'm doing this to work out a 5-element system in a setting faintly resembling Avatar The Last Airbender, but a lack of time has prevented any progress recently.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Mithlas

That explanation makes a great deal of sense, thanks for laying it out like that. I don't know anything about Sorcery and Ritual Path Magic, but I know that Magic as Powers can deal with almost any setup, though this takes a lot of effort since you basically have to build it from the ground up. The price for being able/having to exactly match an idea. I'm doing this to work out a 5-element system in a setting faintly resembling Avatar The Last Airbender, but a lack of time has prevented any progress recently.

Ah.
Ok then you might want to check out GURPS Thaumatology: Chinese Elemental Powers.
Also do a forum search as others have proposed and asked about that kind of magic here before.

[FF_Ninja]

I just like the idea of a mass multi-college magic system. You've got your elemental magics, then you've got mind, spirit, and body magics, and you've got several more exotic branches (necromancy, demonology, shamanism, that sort of thing). Some general branches (like arcane, energy, psi, etc).

You know, back when I was messing with FUDGE, I did have a pretty solid idea for making a choose-your-own-effects magic system. In essence, you would mix and match aspects, runes, words, or whatever to form the spell effect you were looking for. For example, if you had the right aspects - and there was a big list of them you could purchase from different trees - you could put together, say, "Cold" "Growth" "Sharp", and it might cause daggers of ice to rapidly spread across an area.

But, I'm getting tired. I should totally get to bed before I start having crazy thoughts.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by FF_Ninja

I almost wish there was a way to invest points in the magic colleges (or something like them). I like how many spells exist and how they're laid out - you can more or less accomplish nearly any effect you want with the current spell list, all eight-hundred-plus of them - but they're not very-well structured.

Maybe I should take a weekend and pull apart the spell lists, then put them back together in a college structure that makes sense, with prerequisites to match. Maybe generate some new spells that fill out the missing gaps (namely, higher-end, elaborate spells). Hmm.

The simplest way to use GURPS Magic magic is to pick a few dozen common spells, organize them in a way which makes sense for your setting, and have a few notes on what magic can and cannot do in general to guide the invention of new spells. That is some work, and it would help if the spells which the system assumes exist were marked out separately from the ones which simulate a spell from a single short story, but you only have to do it once.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Personally, I find that the standard magic system gives wizards too much energy, not too little, for my world-building tastes, while paradoxically giving them too little energy for combat use. GURPS Thaumatology introduces the Threshold magic system, in which wizards have a daily energy limit and a fixed recovery rate. This system lets wizards cast a few big spells, but since the recovery rate is usually less than the 48 to 240 FP per (working) day that a wizard with high level of Recover Energy gets under the standard magic.

(ninja'd by everyone else!)

Yes. Compared to D&D, even a beginning GURPS mage can cast very many spells in a day. He has to sit around and rest between castings, but then the fighter with Medium encumbrance and a closed helmet, the thief who loots the enemy dead, and the archer who retrieves arrows have to rest after a fight too. GURPS Magic magic lends itself to a series of small effects, not relying on mundane abilities until it is time to release an overwhelming blast of powers.

[Boomerang]

Is GURPS Magic second edition compatible with 4e?

[scc]

Originally Posted by FF_Ninja

I'm in the process of putting together a fantasy campaign (and actually a campaign world, from the ground up). In the process of this, I find myself going over the GURPS: Magic system a few times. While I don't mind complexity, it isn't exactly "pick up and go" and does require significant player investment (in order to understand proper spell use, plan ahead, develop a capable spell library, etc).

This isn't my quandary, however.

There is a way around this however, use Ritual Magic (Also in Magic) and now spells can be cast at default! I know it's not your big problem, but it should help.

Originally Posted by FF_Ninja

Unless I've been doing it wrong since I picked up GURPS - which is a valid possibility - Magic is something most mages (read: mages that aren't walking around in a Very High Mana Field or that don't have some sort of absurd energy regeneration from some source) are only able to utilize magic very infrequently. The reason for this is, frankly, energy/fatigue costs. Even with a high-HT character (and most mages aren't exact Olympic athletes), a small handful of spells (or one or two large ones) will leave him effectively spent for hours.

Of course, my perspective might be a bit skewed - YMMV, am I right? - so I'm here to pick your brains.

• Without buckets of CP into exotic advantages, is my assumption on the limited rate of spell usage accurate?
• In your GURPS travels, have you ever run across a magic system that allowed for more regular, consistent magic use? Did it work out well?
• If I were to develop a world where magic was more frequently used (like, say, the Harry Potter universe), could you pose any theories as to how I could manage that?
• Do you feel like the GURPS magic system is perfectly fine as it is?

I briefly considered a few possibilities - making the entire planet a Very High Mana field, or increasing the rate at which energy (not FP) regenerates - but I suddenly realized that I shouldn't rely entirely on my limited experience. You guys have more games under your belt than I could play in a lifetime.

Unless there is a VERY good reason for the Mage not having Recover Energy at at least 15 he will have that, meaning he can recover 12 energy an hour, which for a beginning PC is fine, they probably don't have more FP then this.

If 12 FP isn't enough for your mages then you have some options:

1. A generic ER, possibly with the 5% discount for no stunts
2. An ER with Granted by Familier, sure you'll need a faniliar, but a cheap one will be like 8 or 15 points
3. An ER with the Gadget Limitation. I'd advise against making this too common, other players will steal other peoples magic rocks, resulting in them having several

Note that all 3 of the above not only recharge separately from your FP, but also from each other, meaning you get 48 energy recovered in an hour